The Chopping Block: Hyperliquid vs. Tarun, ADL Transparency & The Coming Perps Arms Race - Ep. 984
The Chopping Block: Hyperliquid vs. Tarun, ADL Transparency & The Coming Perps Arms Race - Ep. 984
147 days agoUnchainedLaura Shin
Podcast1 hr 6 min
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Note: AI-generated summary based on third-party content. Not financial advice. Read more.
Quick Insights

Consider trading on the Lighter perpetuals exchange to position for its upcoming Token Generation Event (TGE) and potential airdrop. The platform is attracting significant volume with its innovative zero-fee model for retail traders, aiming to disrupt competitors like Hyperliquid. Within the emerging Real-World Asset (RWA) sector, perpetuals for NVIDIA and index funds are showing stronger trading volume than more hyped assets like Tesla. Be cautious of the growing risk where development companies capture value away from token holders, as seen with Aave (AAVE) and Axelar (AXL). Before investing, always verify how a protocol's token is designed to accrue value independently of the founding company's equity.

Detailed Analysis

Lighter (Upcoming Token)

  • Lighter is a rapidly growing perpetuals exchange, currently leading in 7-day and 30-day trading volumes, positioning it as a major competitor to Hyperliquid.
  • The upcoming Token Generation Event (TGE) is a significant driver of current activity and volume, with users trading on the platform in anticipation of an airdrop.
  • Innovative Fee Model: Lighter employs a two-tiered fee structure:
    • Zero fees for regular traders who can tolerate slightly higher latency (a "speed bump"). This is designed to attract retail users, similar to how Robinhood disrupted traditional brokerages.
    • A premium tier with fees for professional traders and market makers who require low latency and API access.
  • Risk Management (ADL): The platform's Auto-Deleveraging (ADL) system is described as "less aggressive" than competitors. It utilizes its liquidity provider pool (LLP) to absorb some losses during extreme market events, aiming to protect traders from being unfairly closed out. On October 10th, the LLP took a $20 million hit, which represented a $20 million collective gain for traders who would have otherwise been liquidated.
  • Roadmap & Vision:
    • The team is focused on building on top of Ethereum, with a vision for any Ethereum asset to be used as collateral on Lighter.
    • They are developing a ZKVM sidecar, which will function as a developer platform. This will allow other major DeFi protocols (like Aave or Morpho) to build on top of Lighter, enabling features like universal cross-margin and the tokenization of Lighter positions.
    • The team's "North Star" metric is Total Value Locked (TVL), not trading volume, which they believe is a more robust indicator of user trust and platform health.

Takeaways

  • Lighter is a strong contender in the perpetuals exchange space, with a unique fee model that is successfully attracting a wide user base.
  • The upcoming TGE is a major short-term catalyst. Investors should be aware that activity may be inflated due to "airdrop farming." It will be crucial to monitor how volume, open interest, and TVL perform after the token launch to gauge sustainable growth.
  • The focus on deep integration with the Ethereum ecosystem via the ZKVM sidecar could create a strong long-term competitive advantage and a powerful "moat" if successful.
  • The team is actively trying to discourage pure "points farmers" by slashing wallets engaging in egregious sybil behavior, suggesting a focus on rewarding genuine users.

Hyperliquid (HYPE)

  • Hyperliquid is a dominant perpetuals exchange, particularly in terms of open interest.
  • The platform was the subject of a research paper by Tarun Chitra which claimed its Auto-Deleveraging (ADL) system was overly aggressive during the October 10th market volatility, causing significant losses for traders. While the exact monetary figure was debated and later revised down, the core criticism about the algorithm's nature and lack of transparency remains a point of contention.
  • Innovation: Hyperliquid is actively shipping new products, including:
    • TradeXYZ: A platform for trading Real-World Asset (RWA) perps, such as NASDAQ and Tesla.
    • Cross-Margin: Recently enabled using their native token, HYPE, as a collateral asset alongside USDC.
  • Transparency: While the exact code for its ADL mechanism is not open source, the platform's on-chain data is public. This transparency is what allowed for the analysis of its ADL events in the first place, which is a significant improvement over centralized exchanges where such data is hidden.

Takeaways

  • Hyperliquid is an established leader in the perps space with a strong track record of innovation.
  • The controversy around its ADL system highlights a potential risk for traders. The system's perceived aggressiveness and lack of full transparency could be a deterrent for large, sophisticated players who prioritize predictability.
  • An investment in Hyperliquid or its ecosystem is a bet that its market leadership, network effects, and continuous product development will outweigh concerns about its core risk engine.

Investment Theme: Perpetual DEXs

  • The discussion highlights a "perps arms race," a period of intense competition and innovation between decentralized perpetuals exchanges like Lighter and Hyperliquid.
  • Key Battlegrounds:
    • Risk Management (ADL): Creating fair, predictable, and transparent ADL systems is crucial to attract and retain institutional capital and professional traders.
    • Fee Structures: Lighter's move to a zero-fee model for retail is a major disruption that other exchanges may be forced to copy, similar to the "Robinhood effect" in traditional finance.
    • Product Expansion: The race is on to offer new features like cross-margin, spot markets, and Real-World Asset (RWA) trading.
  • Decentralization Advantage: A key point made is that decentralized exchanges provide public, on-chain data. This allows for independent analysis and scrutiny of market events (like mass liquidations), which is impossible on centralized exchanges where this data is private.

Takeaways

  • The perpetuals DEX sector is one of the most competitive and rapidly evolving areas in crypto.
  • Investors should evaluate platforms based on the robustness of their risk management, the sustainability of their business model (fees vs. user growth), and their ability to innovate and attract liquidity.
  • The transparency of decentralized platforms is a fundamental advantage, allowing users and analysts to verify activity and hold platforms accountable.

Investment Theme: DevCo vs. Token Risk

  • A major theme discussed is the growing tension between a protocol's token holders and the shareholders of the centralized development company (DevCo) that builds the protocol.
  • Case Study 1: Axelar (AXL)
    • The DevCo behind Axelar was acqui-hired by Circle.
    • The AXL token was not part of the deal, and its price dropped ~15% on the news.
    • This highlights a scenario where the core team can effectively "exit" to a new opportunity, leaving the token and its holders behind.
  • Case Study 2: Aave (AAVE)
    • The DevCo, Avara, began directing fees from a front-end swap feature to the company's treasury instead of the Aave protocol's treasury.
    • This demonstrates how a DevCo can capture value that token holders might believe is owed to the protocol.

Takeaways

  • When investing in a token, it's crucial to understand the relationship between the protocol (governed by the token) and the primary development company.
  • There is a significant risk that the interests of the DevCo's equity holders (founders, VCs) can diverge from the interests of the token holders.
  • Investors should look for clear mechanisms of value accrual to the token and strong incentive alignment between the core team and the token's success. The lack of legal recourse for token holders in these M&A or fee-switching situations makes this a critical area for due diligence.

Investment Theme: Real-World Assets (RWAs)

  • Perpetual contracts for RWAs are emerging as a popular new product on decentralized exchanges.
  • Unexpected Winners: The most-hyped assets are not always the ones that get the most volume. For example, NVIDIA and index perps are reportedly seeing more volume than Tesla perps.
  • FX Markets: Foreign exchange (FX) perps, like the Euro on Lighter, are seeing significant volume. This suggests traders may prefer to get FX exposure via capital-efficient perps rather than holding non-USD stablecoins.
  • Future Catalyst: The ability to trade both spot and perpetuals for RWAs on a single platform is seen as a major future development. This would unlock sophisticated strategies like basis trading for a wide range of traditional assets on-chain.

Takeaways

  • The RWA market on-chain is in its early days, and it's difficult to predict which assets will gain long-term traction.
  • Perpetuals may become the dominant way for crypto-native users to speculate on or hedge against traditional asset prices.
  • Investors interested in this theme should monitor which platforms are successfully launching RWA markets and attracting real, sustainable volume beyond initial hype.
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Episode Description
Welcome to The Chopping Block — where crypto insiders Haseeb Qureshi, Tom Schmidt, Tarun Chitra, and Robert Leshner chop it up about the latest in crypto. This episode features special guest Vladimir Novakovski, Founder of Lighter, joining the crew to unpack the fallout from October 10’s historic perpetuals liquidation event and the ADL research that sparked a public clash with Hyperliquid. The panel digs into how auto-deleveraging really works, why these failures were long hidden inside centralized exchanges, and what decentralized perps must fix to truly outperform TradFi. The conversation then turns to the intensifying perp wars. With Lighter’s zero-fee trading model, premium tiers for pros, and a looming token launch, the hosts debate whether crypto is headed for a Robinhood-style fee reset, why TVL may matter more than volume, and how RWAs, FX perps, and cross-margining are reshaping market structure. Finally, they tackle the growing divide between tokens and equity as devcos get acquired and tokenholders are left behind. Perps are evolving, incentives are breaking — let’s get into it. Show Highlights 🔹 ADL research ignites a firestorm — Tarun’s paper on auto-deleveraging sparks a public clash with Hyperliquid and Paradigm, exposing how opaque ADL systems really are. 🔹 October 10 liquidation shock — Repeated ADLs during crypto’s largest liquidation day reveal structural fragility long hidden inside both CEXs and DEXs. 🔹 Fairness vs predictability in perps — Why traders care less about perfect algorithms and more about knowing when and how ADLs will hit. 🔹 Lighter’s design tradeoffs — Vladimir Novakovski explains Lighter’s less-aggressive ADL approach, insurance fund buffers, and trader-friendly risk parameters. 🔹 Zero-fee perps debate — Lighter’s free retail tier + paid pro tier raises the question: is crypto headed for a Robinhood-style fee reset? 🔹 TVL beats volume — The panel argues TVL is the most honest signal of trust in perp exchanges, especially during market stress. 🔹 RWAs and FX perps surprise — Euro and index perps outperform expectations, challenging assumptions about which real-world assets actually trade onchain. 🔹 Tokens vs equity explode — Devco acquihires (Axelar, Tensor) leave tokenholders behind, reigniting debates over incentive alignment and crypto M&A. Hosts: ⭐️Haseeb Qureshi, Managing Partner at Dragonfly ⭐️Tarun Chitra, Managing Partner at Robot Ventures Guest ⭐️Vladimir Novakovski, Founder & CEO. Lighter. Links: Tarun Chitra’s Autodeleveraging: $653 million lost to a greedy heuristic? 🔗 https://x.com/kenchangh/status/1994854381267947640  ⁠Disclosures⁠ Timestamps 00:00 Intro 01:38 Tarun’s ADL Paper Sparks Backlash 05:24 Research vs Bag Defense 06:27 How ADLs Actually Work 12:27 Fairness vs Predictability 24:14 Tarun’s Inspiration  28:17 Zero-Fee Perps Explained 34:12 Perp Wars Heat Up 38:15 RWAs Trade Onchain 41:49 Token Launch Reality 47:19 Tokens vs Equity Clash Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
About Unchained
Unchained

Unchained

By Laura Shin

Crypto assets and blockchain technology are about to transform every trust-based interaction of our lives, from financial services to identity to the Internet of Things. In this podcast, host Laura Shin, an independent journalist covering all things crypto, talks with industry pioneers about how crypto assets and blockchains will change the way we earn, spend and invest our money. Tune in to find out how Web 3.0, the decentralized web, will revolutionize our world. Disclosure: I'm a nocoiner.