Matt Hougan & Ryan Rasmussen: The Next Bull Run Is Already Here (There Are No Sellers Left)
Matt Hougan & Ryan Rasmussen: The Next Bull Run Is Already Here (There Are No Sellers Left)
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Quick Insights
  • Consider Bitcoin (BTC) as the core crypto exposure; the discussion cites 1%–2% as a potential starting allocation for traditional investors, not a universal recommendation.
  • For diversified exposure beyond Bitcoin, research Ethereum (ETH) and Solana (SOL), comparing relative valuations rather than choosing solely by technology preference.
  • Treat Near (NEAR) and Zcash (ZEC) as higher-risk satellite positions: their upside cases are speculative and depend on adoption and execution.
  • Track stablecoins, tokenization, and on-chain lending as long-term themes; monitor regulatory progress and real institutional usage before investing in related protocols or equities.
  • Expect possible short-term volatility from AI-sector competition and broader market events; size crypto positions carefully rather than relying on a single token or a predicted bull-market timeline.
Detailed Analysis

Bitcoin (BTC)

  • The speakers describe Bitcoin as the likely first and largest crypto allocation for traditional investors, especially financial advisors beginning with a 1%–2% position.
  • They argue that Bitcoin’s share of the store-of-value market has grown to 5% or more, and that the broader market could expand further amid concerns about fiat debasement, debt, and deficits.
  • They expect Bitcoin to remain the market leader, while allowing that other crypto assets could gain a share of a growing store-of-value market.

Takeaways

  • Bitcoin is presented as a potential core crypto holding and a likely early beneficiary if traditional investors increase allocations.
  • The speakers’ broader thesis depends on continued growth in the store-of-value market; their view does not rule out other assets gaining ground.

Ethereum (ETH)

  • Ethereum is discussed as an established major asset, with a role in a portfolio that may differ from Bitcoin, Solana, or smaller projects.
  • The speakers suggest investors should compare assets’ relative valuations, not just decide which network they prefer.
  • They cite Ethereum and Solana as examples of assets that investors often compare without considering their valuation difference.

Takeaways

  • Consider Ethereum as one possible part of a diversified crypto exposure, while assessing its valuation relative to alternatives.
  • The speakers emphasize that established assets and smaller, higher-risk projects should be sized and evaluated differently.

Solana (SOL)

  • Solana is described as a major asset that could attract investment, but also as a valuation comparison for smaller networks such as Near.
  • The speakers argue that investors should evaluate Solana in relation to other networks’ market values, rather than focusing only on technology or preference.

Takeaways

  • Solana is presented as an established-network exposure; the discussion offers no specific price target or buy recommendation.
  • Compare its valuation and investment case with alternatives, while recognizing that the speakers regard smaller projects as riskier.

XRP (XRP)

  • XRP is mentioned as part of the familiar basket of major crypto assets that investors have historically considered.

Takeaways

  • The transcript provides no asset-specific thesis, valuation view, or recommendation for XRP.

Litecoin (LTC)

  • Litecoin is mentioned as a major asset whose privacy and DeFi capabilities are attracting renewed attention.
  • The speakers frame it as part of a broader revival of crypto assets that could serve roles beyond Bitcoin.

Takeaways

  • Litecoin is raised as a possible alternative asset, but the discussion does not provide a specific valuation case or recommendation.

Zcash (ZEC)

  • Zcash is presented as a privacy-focused project that could benefit as Bitcoin becomes more integrated with mainstream finance and regulation.
  • The speakers see potential for additional store-of-value assets alongside Bitcoin, while emphasizing that Bitcoin is unlikely to lose its market leadership soon.
  • One speaker says Zcash could potentially reach one-tenth of Bitcoin’s valuation. This is a speculative view, not a stated price target.
  • The conversation cites buying Zcash at $20, $40, $100, and $200 as examples of opportunities available to investors; these are not presented as current prices or recommended entry points.

Takeaways

  • Zcash represents a higher-risk, privacy-oriented thesis distinct from Bitcoin’s established role, according to the discussion.
  • The possible valuation comparison is speculative. The transcript does not address specific risks to that thesis.

Near (NEAR)

  • Near is described as a smaller network pursuing a large potential market. The speakers say that if it succeeds, it could have substantial upside, while explicitly noting there is no guarantee.
  • One speaker says Near could challenge Solana, and another calls it undervalued relative to its potential.
  • Near is also cited among projects that performed well despite a weak market, which the speakers view as evidence that investors are rewarding fundamentals and strong narratives.

Takeaways

  • Near is presented as a higher-risk growth thesis, with potential tied to execution and adoption.
  • The speakers favor assessing its potential market and valuation, but also stress that investors should not rely on selecting a single winner.

Hyperliquid (HYPE)

  • Hyperliquid is cited as a revenue-producing project with strong user metrics and as an example of a newer project that gained market share despite being an underdog.
  • The discussion mentions the possibility of licensed perpetual-futures markets becoming available in the United States through a partnership involving Payward.
  • The speakers use Hyperliquid to illustrate how new projects can succeed even in categories that investors may have considered mature.

Takeaways

  • Hyperliquid is presented as a project to assess through user activity, revenue, and its ability to expand into new markets.
  • Its growth is not a guarantee of future performance; the transcript provides no specific price target.

Pearl

  • Pearl is discussed as a newer project associated with the AI theme.
  • A Bitwise speaker says team members are bullish and plan to continue researching it. The speakers also cite projects finding traction during a weak market as a positive sign.

Takeaways

  • Pearl is an early-stage idea discussed with interest, not a firm recommendation; the speakers say their research is ongoing.
  • Treat the discussion as preliminary rather than as a confirmed investment thesis.

Uniswap (UNI), Aave (AAVE), and Morpho (MORPHO)

  • Uniswap, Aave, and Morpho are named as ways to gain exposure to DeFi.
  • Aave and Morpho are specifically cited as lending protocols that could benefit as tokenized assets, stablecoins, and broader financial activity move on-chain.
  • The speakers argue that these markets could expand beyond crypto-native assets and users, creating a much larger potential addressable market.

Takeaways

  • These protocols are presented as potential exposure to on-chain trading and lending activity.
  • The thesis depends on adoption and execution; the discussion does not provide asset-specific targets or quantify the likelihood of success.

Coinbase, Robinhood, Figure, Securitize, and Circle

  • The speakers identify these companies as possible equity-based ways to gain exposure to crypto trends such as stablecoins, perpetuals, tokenization, and lending.
  • They argue that publicly accessible investment vehicles and familiar brokerage accounts can make it easier for traditional investors and financial advisors to participate.
  • The transcript does not provide company-specific financial analysis or a ranking among these names.

Takeaways

  • Crypto-related equities may offer an alternative to holding tokens directly, but the discussion does not assess individual company valuations or risks.
  • Investors would still need to distinguish between each company’s business exposure and the broader crypto-market thesis.

Stablecoins and Tokenization

  • The speakers describe stablecoins and tokenized assets as major long-term growth themes that remain unfamiliar to many traditional financial advisors.
  • They say stablecoin growth has been about 600%, and expect adoption to rise further as regulation develops and major banks and financial institutions use the technology.
  • They argue that tokenization could expand crypto markets from crypto-native assets to a much wider range of global assets.
  • Regulation, institutional adoption, and access to investment products are presented as important conditions for broader growth.

Takeaways

  • Stablecoins and tokenization are the speakers’ central long-term themes, but the benefits may take time to materialize.
  • Watch for evidence of regulatory progress and real institutional usage rather than relying on adoption expectations alone.

Perpetuals and On-Chain Lending

  • The speakers see perpetual-futures markets and lending protocols as potential beneficiaries of crypto moving onshore and serving a wider range of investors.
  • Payward is mentioned in connection with bringing licensed perpetual markets to Hyperliquid; a speaker also says Lighter could be months away from entering the U.S.
  • They argue that combining access to more asset types with access for more investors could greatly enlarge the addressable market.

Takeaways

  • These are growth themes tied to wider market access and regulatory developments, not guaranteed outcomes.
  • The discussion provides no specific timing beyond the speaker’s claim that U.S. access could be months away for Lighter.

Crypto ETFs and Index Funds

  • ETFs and index funds are described as making crypto easier for financial advisors and traditional investors to access through brokerage accounts.
  • The speakers suggest these products can support both allocations to Bitcoin and broader exposure to crypto assets.
  • They recommend thinking in terms of a diversified basket rather than trying to identify the one project that will succeed.

Takeaways

  • For investors who want crypto exposure, the discussion highlights diversified products as one way to avoid relying on a single token.
  • One speaker gives a hypothetical example of a 10% allocation to crypto-related trends, with 5% in Bitcoin and the remainder split across five projects. This is an illustration, not a recommendation.

AI and Technology IPOs: Anthropic, OpenAI, SpaceX, CoreWeave, and Oracle

  • The speakers describe AI as a crowded investment theme that could temporarily draw capital away from crypto.
  • They discuss a potential November rotation into AI-related share offerings, including an Anthropic IPO, followed by a possible return of capital to crypto in December. These are the speakers’ expectations, not established outcomes.
  • SpaceX, OpenAI, and the broader AI buildout are also mentioned as competing destinations for investor capital.
  • Rising concerns about AI valuations and CDS movements related to CoreWeave and Oracle are cited as factors that may have helped some capital return to crypto.

Takeaways

  • The speakers see technology issuance as a possible short-term headwind for crypto, alongside a potential later rotation back into the sector.
  • They explicitly flag risks from an AI-market shock, Federal Reserve developments, and the election.

Gold and the Store-of-Value Market

  • Gold is used to illustrate how the overall store-of-value market can grow over time: the speakers cite a rise from a $2 trillion market 20 years ago to $30 trillion today.
  • They argue that Bitcoin and potentially other crypto assets could grow even if Bitcoin’s share of the market declines, provided the overall market expands.

Takeaways

  • The speakers’ crypto store-of-value thesis depends partly on continued growth in demand for assets viewed as stores of value.
  • Gold is discussed as a comparison, not as a specific investment recommendation.

Overall Crypto Market and Portfolio Approach

  • The speakers describe a long-term bullish setup for crypto, citing potential advisor allocations, regulatory developments, stablecoin growth, tokenization, and institutional adoption.
  • They say short-term concerns may dominate headlines, including possible shocks involving AI, the Fed, or the election. They also warn that capital could temporarily move into technology offerings.
  • They argue that investors are increasingly differentiating between projects based on fundamentals, revenue, users, and product quality rather than buying broad market momentum.
  • They favor considering a basket of projects, sizing positions according to risk, and assessing valuation relative to the potential market.
  • A speaker says the crypto market may be less prone to extreme pullbacks in projects with real revenue because fundamental buyers could add during declines. This is an expectation, not a guarantee.
  • The speakers cite late 2026 or early 2027 as a possible period for a bull market, while also arguing that the next cycle may already be underway.

Takeaways

  • The discussion supports a research-led, diversified approach: distinguish established assets from higher-risk projects and avoid assuming that broad market momentum will lift every token.
  • Potential upside is tied to adoption, fundamentals, and access, but the speakers’ optimistic outlook is subject to short-term market shocks and execution risk.
  • No specific price targets are provided.
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Episode Description
Matt Hougan and Ryan Rasmussen say the money that was going to leave digital assets already left, and once the Anthropic IPO passes, the floodgates could open for capital rotating into the next big thing: tokenization and stablecoins. Live from The Bridge by The Tie in New York City, Bitwise's CIO and Head of Research explain why short-term shocks from the Fed, the election and the AI trade are hiding what Hougan calls a long-term, extraordinarily great setup, driven by 300,000 financial advisors finally making a 2% allocation and regulation like the GENIUS Act still working its way through. They break down why there are no more sellers left, why digital assets look remarkably undervalued next to other categories, and why stablecoins, tokenization and perps are taking off at exactly the right time, with the regulation, the institutional adoption and the access all in place. They also explain why bad builders can no longer ride the beta, and why fundamental buyers stepping in should mean fewer 90% drawdowns for real projects with real revenue. Matt Hougan is Chief Investment Officer at Bitwise. Ryan Rasmussen is Head of Research at Bitwise. The Rollup is where the leaders of digital assets and finance converge. Live from the financial capital of the world. Timestamps: 00:00 Intro 01:16 Why Pessimism Feels So Natural Right Now 04:09 When AI Capital Rotates Into Digital Assets 07:03 All The Sellers Already Left The Market 11:07 BlackRock And SEC Changed Everything For Bitcoin 13:11 Perps Stablecoins And Tokenization Are The Big Three 16:00 Think In Network Ownership Not Just Price 19:32 Zcash Could Reach One-Tenth Of Bitcoin 22:13 Easier To Invest Harder To Build Today 24:13 Fundamentals Create Buyers When Prices Dip 26:02 Everyone Said Perps Were Done After BitMEX 28:02 Consensus Winners Still Have Room To Run Guest Socials: Matt Hougan X: https://x.com/Matt_Hougan Ryan Rasmussen X: https://x.com/RasterlyRock Bitwise X: https://x.com/Bitwise Partners: Space and Time is providing verifiable data infrastructure for onchain finance. A decentralized database, blockchain indexer, and ZK coprocessor in one, giving DeFi protocols,stablecoins, and tokenized assets accurate, provable data. --- Zama is an open source cryptography company that builds state-of-the-art Fully Homomorphic Encryption (FHE) solutions for blockchain. Learn more here: https://www.zama.org/ --- 𝗪𝗲 𝘁𝗿𝘆 𝗼𝘂𝗿 𝗯𝗲𝘀𝘁 𝘁𝗼 𝗽𝗿𝗼𝗱𝘂𝗰𝗲 𝗵𝗶𝗴𝗵-𝗾𝘂𝗮𝗹𝗶𝘁𝘆, 𝗻𝗼𝗻-𝗯𝗶𝗮𝘀𝗲𝗱, 𝗲𝗱𝘂𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝗮𝗹 𝗰𝗼𝗻𝘁𝗲𝗻𝘁 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗱𝗶𝗴𝗶𝘁𝗮𝗹 𝗮𝘀𝘀𝗲𝘁𝘀 𝗲𝗰𝗼𝘀𝘆𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗺. 𝗦𝘂𝗽𝗽𝗼𝗿𝘁 𝘂𝘀 𝗯𝘆 𝗰𝗹𝗶𝗰𝗸𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗮𝗻𝘆 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗹𝗶𝗻𝗸𝘀 𝗯𝗲𝗹𝗼𝘄 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝗳𝗿𝗲𝗲 𝗿𝗲𝘀𝗼𝘂𝗿𝗰𝗲𝘀: Website: https://therollup.co/ Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1P6ZeYd9vbF3hJA2n7qoL5 Podcast: https://therollup.co/category/podcast Follow us on X: https://www.x.com/therollupco Follow Rob on X: https://x.com/robbieklages Follow Andy on X: https://x.com/andyyy Join our TG group: https://t.me/+TsM1CRpWFgk1NGZh The Rollup Disclosures: https://goodidea.ventures .. .𝗗𝗜𝗦𝗖𝗟𝗔𝗜𝗠𝗘𝗥: 𝘐𝘯𝘷𝘦𝘴𝘵𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘪𝘯 𝘤𝘳𝘺𝘱𝘵𝘰𝘤𝘶𝘳𝘳𝘦𝘯𝘤𝘺 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘋𝘦𝘍𝘪 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮𝘴 𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘦𝘴 𝘸𝘪𝘵𝘩 𝘪𝘯𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘬𝘴 𝘪𝘯𝘤𝘭𝘶𝘥𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘵𝘦𝘤𝘩𝘯𝘪𝘤𝘢𝘭 𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘬, 𝘩𝘶𝘮𝘢𝘯 𝘦𝘳𝘳𝘰𝘳, 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮 𝘧𝘢𝘪𝘭𝘶𝘳𝘦 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘮𝘰𝘳𝘦. 𝘈𝘵 𝘤𝘦𝘳𝘵𝘢𝘪𝘯 𝘱𝘰𝘪𝘯𝘵𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘳𝘰𝘶𝘨𝘩𝘰𝘶𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘤𝘩𝘢𝘯𝘯𝘦𝘭, 𝘸𝘦 𝘮𝘢𝘺 𝘦𝘢𝘳𝘯 𝘢 𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘮𝘪𝘴𝘴𝘪𝘰𝘯 𝘰𝘳 𝘧𝘦𝘦 𝘢𝘴 𝘢 𝘴𝘱𝘰𝘯𝘴𝘰𝘳𝘴𝘩𝘪𝘱, 𝘪𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘪𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘤𝘢𝘴𝘦 𝘸𝘦 𝘸𝘪𝘭𝘭 𝘢𝘭𝘸𝘢𝘺𝘴 𝘮𝘢𝘬𝘦 𝘴𝘶𝘳𝘦 𝘪𝘵 𝘪𝘴 𝘤𝘭𝘦𝘢𝘳. 𝘞𝘦 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘴𝘵𝘳𝘪𝘤𝘵𝘭𝘺 𝘢𝘯 𝘦𝘥𝘷𝘪𝘤𝘦. 𝘞𝘦 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘱𝘳𝘰𝘧𝘦𝘴𝘴𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘢𝘭𝘴 𝘰𝘳 𝘭𝘪𝘤𝘦𝘯𝘴𝘦𝘥 𝘢𝘥𝘷𝘪𝘴𝘰𝘳𝘴.
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