ETFs vs DATs Explained with Steven McClurg & Eric Chen
ETFs vs DATs Explained with Steven McClurg & Eric Chen
Podcast41 min 14 sec
Listen to Episode
Note: AI-generated summary based on third-party content. Not financial advice. Read more.
Quick Insights

Consider researching Sole Strategies, the first Solana-focused Digital Asset Treasury (DAT) to list on the NASDAQ, which is viewed favorably for its profitable validator business. Another investment to watch is Pineapple Financial, a new DAT with a $100 million treasury in Injective (INJ), backed by a legitimate mortgage underwriting business. Monitor the SEC filing for a staked Injective (INJ) ETF, as its approval could be a major catalyst for the token's price. Prepare for a potential wave of new crypto ETFs, possibly starting in October/November 2024, which could significantly increase investment flows into the market. When evaluating future crypto ETFs, prioritize those that include staking to benefit from additional yield on top of price appreciation.

Detailed Analysis

Injective (INJ)

  • A staked Injective ETF has been filed with the SEC. The speakers are optimistic about its approval, potentially as part of a wave of new crypto ETFs.
  • A $100 million Digital Asset Treasury (DAT) for INJ was recently launched through a company called Pineapple Financial. This is presented as a well-structured DAT.
    • Pineapple Financial is described as a successful mortgage underwriting business, providing a legitimate operating company alongside the crypto treasury strategy. This is highlighted as a key positive differentiator from other DATs.
  • The institutional pitch for Injective is that it's a "finance forward blockchain" that serves as a "nexus of financial activity for both institutions and the general everyday consumers."
  • The approval of an ETF is seen as a major catalyst to expand the token's reach beyond the current crypto-native community to a much broader market of investors, such as "Henrys" (High Earners, Not Rich Yet).

Takeaways

  • The potential approval of a staked INJ ETF is a significant catalyst to watch. This would provide investors with direct exposure to INJ and its staking yield through a traditional brokerage account.
  • The Pineapple Financial DAT offers an alternative way to gain exposure to INJ. An investment in this company is a bet on both the value of its INJ treasury and the success of its underlying mortgage business.
  • Investors should monitor the progress of the INJ ETF filing. Based on the speaker's "guesstimate," a wave of crypto ETFs could be approved starting in October/November 2024.

Solana (SOL)

  • Sole Strategies, described as the first Solana DAT, was just approved for listing on the NASDAQ.
  • The speaker is very bullish on this company because it has a strong operating business: running Solana validators for its own treasury and for other customers.
    • This is presented as a "tremendous business" that is expected to be "extremely profitable" through its validator activities, not just from the appreciation of its SOL holdings.
  • A separate Solana ETF that offers staking is mentioned, but the speaker dismisses it as "not a true ETF." It is described as a '40 Act fund that holds other assets and does not provide direct exposure to SOL.

Takeaways

  • The NASDAQ listing of Sole Strategies is a major positive development, making it easier for traditional investors to get exposure to the Solana ecosystem.
  • Investors looking for a stock market proxy for Solana should research Sole Strategies. Its strong underlying validator business is a key positive factor highlighted in the discussion, potentially making it a more robust investment than DATs without a profitable operating business.

Digital Asset Treasuries (DATs)

  • DATs are publicly traded companies that hold large amounts of cryptocurrency on their balance sheets, with MicroStrategy (MSTR) being the most famous example.
  • The speakers are bullish on the DAT concept in general but bearish on many of the specific DATs that currently exist due to poor structure and high fees.
  • What makes a good DAT:
    • A legitimate, profitable underlying operating business (e.g., Pineapple Financial's mortgage business, Sole Strategies' validator business).
    • Reasonable management fees, cited as being around 1%.
    • A clean corporate structure without excessive warrants or "hands in the cookie jar."
  • Red flags for a bad DAT:
    • Extremely high management fees (3-5% is called "absolutely ridiculous").
    • A failing or non-existent operating business that is using the crypto treasury as a "bailout."
    • Operating costs that exceed the income generated from staking or other activities.
  • The speaker predicts that there will be increased scrutiny on poorly structured DATs in the coming months, and some may "blow up on their face."

Takeaways

  • DATs are a high-risk, high-reward way to invest in crypto through the stock market. They offer exposure not just to the asset but also to the management's strategy and the underlying business.
  • Thorough due diligence is critical. Before investing in a DAT, analyze its underlying business, management fee structure, and operating profitability. Avoid companies that seem to be using crypto as a lifeline for a failing business.
  • Look for DATs where the income from the treasury (e.g., staking yield) and the operating business comfortably exceeds the company's expenses.

Crypto ETFs & Staking

  • A speaker "guesstimates" a potential timeline for new crypto ETF approvals:
    • First Wave (October/November 2024): ETFs for tokens that already have a US futures market (e.g., on CME or Coinbase).
    • Second Wave (Spring 2025): ETFs for other tokens that qualify based on quantitative measures like market cap and trading volume.
  • Staking is considered an "extremely important feature" for crypto ETFs. The speakers believe ETFs that include staking are far more compelling for investors because of the additional yield.
  • It is expected that future crypto ETFs for proof-of-stake assets (like ETH, INJ, SOL) will include staking from day one.
  • While some analysts are bearish on staking yields compressing over time, the speakers argue that the massive demand from new institutional products like ETFs and DATs could keep yields attractive.

Takeaways

  • The potential approval of a wide range of altcoin ETFs in late 2024 and early 2025 is a major market-wide catalyst to watch. This could "open the floodgates" to new capital.
  • When considering a crypto ETF for a proof-of-stake asset, prioritize versions that include staking. This provides a direct yield on top of any price appreciation of the underlying crypto asset.
  • The debate around staking yields is important. While they may decrease, the launch of these new products suggests there will be sustained demand for staking as a feature.

MicroStrategy (MSTR)

  • There is discussion about MSTR potentially being included in the S&P 500 index.
  • If this happens, it would be a landmark event, giving millions of investors indirect exposure to Bitcoin through standard index funds and 401(k)s for the first time.
  • However, one speaker is the "biggest doubter" that it will be added.
    • The reasoning is that MSTR's original software business is now a very small part of the company, which functions almost purely as a Bitcoin holding company. This may disqualify it from S&P 500 inclusion criteria, which favor operating companies.

Takeaways

  • MicroStrategy remains a primary stock market proxy for Bitcoin.
  • The potential for S&P 500 inclusion is a significant long-term narrative, but investors should be aware that there are arguments against it happening due to the nature of MSTR's business. This is a speculative catalyst, not a certainty.
Ask about this postAnswers are grounded in this post's content.
Episode Description
The ETF floodgates are about to open. Today we sit down with Steven McClurg from Canary Capital and Eric Chen from Injective Protocol to explore the next wave of crypto ETFs hitting institutional markets. Steven breaks down his October timeline for generic listing standards and why we could see 20-50 crypto ETFs approved this year. We cover staking yields, treasury companies, and how crypto reaches beyond the Twitter bubble. The Rollup Website: https://therollup.co/ Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1P6ZeYd9vbF3hJA2n7qoL5?si=f5ab82aaf7e2428d Podcast: https://therollup.co/category/podcast Follow us on X: https://www.x.com/therollupco Follow Rob on X: https://www.x.com/robbie_rollup Follow Andy on X: https://www.x.com/ayyyeandy Join our TG group: https://t.me/+8ARkR_YZixE5YjBh The Rollup Disclosures: https://therollup.co/the-rollup-discl ๐——๐—œ๐—ฆ๐—–๐—Ÿ๐—”๐—œ๐— ๐—˜๐—ฅ: ๐˜๐˜ฏ๐˜ท๐˜ฆ๐˜ด๐˜ต๐˜ช๐˜ฏ๐˜จ ๐˜ช๐˜ฏ ๐˜ค๐˜ณ๐˜บ๐˜ฑ๐˜ต๐˜ฐ๐˜ค๐˜ถ๐˜ณ๐˜ณ๐˜ฆ๐˜ฏ๐˜ค๐˜บ ๐˜ข๐˜ฏ๐˜ฅ ๐˜‹๐˜ฆ๐˜๐˜ช ๐˜ฑ๐˜ญ๐˜ข๐˜ต๐˜ง๐˜ฐ๐˜ณ๐˜ฎ๐˜ด ๐˜ค๐˜ฐ๐˜ฎ๐˜ฆ๐˜ด ๐˜ธ๐˜ช๐˜ต๐˜ฉ ๐˜ช๐˜ฏ๐˜ฉ๐˜ฆ๐˜ณ๐˜ฆ๐˜ฏ๐˜ต ๐˜ณ๐˜ช๐˜ด๐˜ฌ๐˜ด ๐˜ช๐˜ฏ๐˜ค๐˜ญ๐˜ถ๐˜ฅ๐˜ช๐˜ฏ๐˜จ ๐˜ต๐˜ฆ๐˜ค๐˜ฉ๐˜ฏ๐˜ช๐˜ค๐˜ข๐˜ญ ๐˜ณ๐˜ช๐˜ด๐˜ฌ, ๐˜ฉ๐˜ถ๐˜ฎ๐˜ข๐˜ฏ ๐˜ฆ๐˜ณ๐˜ณ๐˜ฐ๐˜ณ, ๐˜ฑ๐˜ญ๐˜ข๐˜ต๐˜ง๐˜ฐ๐˜ณ๐˜ฎ ๐˜ง๐˜ข๐˜ช๐˜ญ๐˜ถ๐˜ณ๐˜ฆ ๐˜ข๐˜ฏ๐˜ฅ ๐˜ฎ๐˜ฐ๐˜ณ๐˜ฆ. ๐˜ˆ๐˜ต ๐˜ค๐˜ฆ๐˜ณ๐˜ต๐˜ข๐˜ช๐˜ฏ ๐˜ฑ๐˜ฐ๐˜ช๐˜ฏ๐˜ต๐˜ด ๐˜ต๐˜ฉ๐˜ณ๐˜ฐ๐˜ถ๐˜จ๐˜ฉ๐˜ฐ๐˜ถ๐˜ต ๐˜ต๐˜ฉ๐˜ช๐˜ด ๐˜ค๐˜ฉ๐˜ข๐˜ฏ๐˜ฏ๐˜ฆ๐˜ญ, ๐˜ธ๐˜ฆ ๐˜ฎ๐˜ข๐˜บ ๐˜ฆ๐˜ข๐˜ณ๐˜ฏ ๐˜ข ๐˜ค๐˜ฐ๐˜ฎ๐˜ฎ๐˜ช๐˜ด๐˜ด๐˜ช๐˜ฐ๐˜ฏ ๐˜ฐ๐˜ณ ๐˜ง๐˜ฆ๐˜ฆ ๐˜ข๐˜ด ๐˜ข ๐˜ด๐˜ฑ๐˜ฐ๐˜ฏ๐˜ด๐˜ฐ๐˜ณ๐˜ด๐˜ฉ๐˜ช๐˜ฑ, ๐˜ช๐˜ง ๐˜ต๐˜ฉ๐˜ช๐˜ด ๐˜ช๐˜ด ๐˜ต๐˜ฉ๐˜ฆ ๐˜ค๐˜ข๐˜ด๐˜ฆ ๐˜ธ๐˜ฆ ๐˜ธ๐˜ช๐˜ญ๐˜ญ ๐˜ข๐˜ญ๐˜ธ๐˜ข๐˜บ๐˜ด ๐˜ฎ๐˜ข๐˜ฌ๐˜ฆ ๐˜ด๐˜ถ๐˜ณ๐˜ฆ ๐˜ช๐˜ต ๐˜ช๐˜ด ๐˜ค๐˜ญ๐˜ฆ๐˜ข๐˜ณ. ๐˜ž๐˜ฆ ๐˜ข๐˜ณ๐˜ฆ ๐˜ด๐˜ต๐˜ณ๐˜ช๐˜ค๐˜ต๐˜ญ๐˜บ ๐˜ข๐˜ฏ ๐˜ฆ๐˜ฅ๐˜ถ๐˜ค๐˜ข๐˜ต๐˜ช๐˜ฐ๐˜ฏ๐˜ข๐˜ญ ๐˜ค๐˜ฐ๐˜ฏ๐˜ต๐˜ฆ๐˜ฏ๐˜ต ๐˜ฑ๐˜ญ๐˜ข๐˜ต๐˜ง๐˜ฐ๐˜ณ๐˜ฎ, ๐˜ฏ๐˜ฐ๐˜ต๐˜ฉ๐˜ช๐˜ฏ๐˜จ ๐˜ธ๐˜ฆ ๐˜ฐ๐˜ง๐˜ง๐˜ฆ๐˜ณ ๐˜ช๐˜ด ๐˜ง๐˜ช๐˜ฏ๐˜ข๐˜ฏ๐˜ค๐˜ช๐˜ข๐˜ญ ๐˜ข๐˜ฅ๐˜ท๐˜ช๐˜ค๐˜ฆ. ๐˜ž๐˜ฆ ๐˜ข๐˜ณ๐˜ฆ ๐˜ฏ๐˜ฐ๐˜ต ๐˜ฑ๐˜ณ๐˜ฐ๐˜ง๐˜ฆ๐˜ด๐˜ด๐˜ช๐˜ฐ๐˜ฏ๐˜ข๐˜ญ๐˜ด ๐˜ฐ๐˜ณ ๐˜ญ๐˜ช๐˜ค๐˜ฆ๐˜ฏ๐˜ด๐˜ฆ๐˜ฅ ๐˜ข๐˜ฅ๐˜ท๐˜ช๐˜ด๐˜ฐ๐˜ณ๐˜ด.
About The Rollup
The Rollup

The Rollup

By Face-to-face with the most important people in digital assets.

Face-to-face with the most important people in digital assets. Explore: https://therollup.co/