Crypto Twitter Says Bear, Wall Street Says Bull with Framework Ventures founders
Crypto Twitter Says Bear, Wall Street Says Bull with Framework Ventures founders
Podcast43 min 43 sec
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Note: AI-generated summary based on third-party content. Not financial advice. Read more.
Quick Insights

The current market is viewed as an oversold buying opportunity for Bitcoin (BTC), which is sitting at strong technical support with limited downside risk. Ethereum (ETH) is a primary beneficiary of the Real World Asset (RWA) trend, with upcoming staking ETFs and the Dencun upgrade providing strong bullish catalysts. Hyperliquid is considered the undisputed winner in the perpetuals space, and its upcoming token unlock is viewed as a potentially bullish event. Consider investing in DEXs like Aerodrome (AERO) and Velodrome (VELO), which are praised for having a superior revenue-sharing model compared to competitors. Focus investments on projects with clear business models that generate revenue, as this "revenue meta" is the key driver of value.

Detailed Analysis

Investment Theme: Real World Assets (RWAs) & Tokenization

  • This is described as the "most interesting part of the market today" and a key driver of the "Wall Streetification of crypto."
  • There is significant interest from large institutional players like Fidelity, JP Morgan, and Goldman Sachs, who are looking for ways to get on-chain and access yield.
  • The growth of stablecoins and tokenized yield products is creating new opportunities for investors, attracting both institutional capital and a new class of retail investors dubbed "RWA DGENs."
  • Examples of RWA projects mentioned include Daylight tokenizing energy and USDAI tokenizing GPUs.
  • A key risk highlighted is the credit quality of the underlying assets. The speakers contrasted opaque, off-chain funds with transparent, on-chain assets like a tokenized Janus Henderson triple-A CLO ETF. The market is seen as correctly punishing projects with poor transparency or credit quality.

Takeaways

  • The tokenization of real-world assets is considered a primary growth narrative for the current crypto cycle, attracting significant institutional capital.
  • Investors should focus on projects in this sector that have clear business models, high-quality underlying assets, and a strong emphasis on transparency.
  • The market is beginning to differentiate between high-quality, transparent RWAs and riskier, opaque offerings. Due diligence on the underlying credit quality is crucial.

Investment Theme: The "Revenue Meta" & Business Models

  • A major theme is that crypto projects are being forced to adopt real business models that generate revenue for token holders. This is referred to as the "revenue meta."
  • Projects that do not have revenue, earnings, or a path to profitability are being "left by the wayside."
  • The speakers state they are "only investing in projects that really can deliver that type of value."
  • Projects without revenue are being forced to pivot or rebrand themselves as a "store of value" (like Zcash was mentioned).

Takeaways

  • The era of "valueless governance tokens" is coming to an end. The market is now rewarding tokens that have clear mechanisms for value accrual, such as revenue sharing or buybacks.
  • When evaluating a crypto project, a key question should be: "Does this project have a sustainable business model and how does value flow back to the token?"
  • Projects that are successfully implementing revenue sharing are seeing their token prices re-rate upwards significantly (e.g., Uniswap).

Uniswap (UNI)

  • Uniswap announced a proposal to begin sharing protocol revenue with UNI token holders.
  • The market reaction was immediately positive, with the price of UNI jumping 50%. This is seen as a validation of the "revenue meta."
  • However, the speakers expressed skepticism, suggesting the move might be "four years too late" as competitors have already innovated with more advanced token models.
  • A key conflict was identified between the shareholders of Uniswap Labs (the private company) and the UNI token holders, as they will compete for the same revenue streams. The speakers noted that the company has a fiduciary duty to its equity holders, which could bias decisions against token holders.
  • Competitors like Aerodrome and Velodrome are seen as having a superior "ve token model" for distributing revenue and aligning long-term incentives.

Takeaways

  • Uniswap's pivot to revenue sharing is a significant bullish catalyst in the short term, but its long-term success is not guaranteed.
  • The project faces major hurdles, including intense competition from more innovative DEXs and an inherent conflict between its private equity investors and public token holders.
  • Investors should monitor whether the new fee structure impacts Uniswap's trading volume and how it continues to compete with rivals like Aerodrome.

Hyperliquid

  • Hyperliquid is seen as a market leader in perpetuals trading that has forced the entire industry to rethink tokenomics and adopt revenue sharing.
  • An upcoming token unlock is viewed as a potentially "bullish unlock." The reasoning is that the largest holders (like the founding team) are long-term believers with little incentive to sell, which could create a "supply sink" rather than sell pressure.
  • The speakers are extremely bearish on competitors, calling the attempt to invest in the #2 or #3 player in a crypto category the "perpetual Widowmaker trade."
  • They believe the #1 player (Hyperliquid) will eventually accrue 99% of the value in the perpetuals market, up from an estimated 90% today. The competitor Lighter was dismissed as not being a significant long-term threat.

Takeaways

  • Hyperliquid is viewed as the undisputed, long-term winner in the decentralized perpetuals space.
  • Contrary to conventional wisdom, the upcoming token unlock is being framed as a bullish event by the speakers.
  • The analysis suggests that in dominant crypto categories, it is far more profitable to bet on the #1 player than to speculate on competitors catching up.

Ethereum (ETH)

  • Ethereum is the primary beneficiary of the RWA trend, as its deep liquidity creates a flywheel effect, attracting more projects and capital.
  • The approval of staking ETFs is considered a "very big deal." It allows investors to earn an extra ~3% compounding yield on their ETH, making it a much more attractive asset for large pools of capital.
  • A major upcoming catalyst is the "Fusaka" upgrade (likely a transcription error for the Dencun upgrade). This is described as a "pretty fundamental change" that will increase transaction speeds on Layer 2s and improve Ethereum's core economics.
  • Layer 2s built on Ethereum, such as the one mentioned as "LIDAR," are expected to become some of the largest burners of ETH tokens after the upgrade, adding to ETH's deflationary pressure.

Takeaways

  • Ethereum is fundamentally well-positioned due to its central role in the high-growth RWA sector.
  • The combination of staking ETFs (increasing demand and yield) and the upcoming Dencun upgrade (improving scalability and economics) provides strong bullish catalysts for ETH.

Bitcoin (BTC)

  • The speakers believe the crypto market is in an "oversell" period and that many traders expecting a massive crash will be caught "offsides."
  • Bearish price targets circulating on "Crypto Twitter" are described as "pretty weak." Specific targets mentioned were $87,000 and $90,000, suggesting downside is perceived as limited. (Note: These price levels from the transcript are unusually high and may be transcription errors, but reflect the speaker's sentiment of limited downside).
  • It was noted that from a technical analysis perspective, Bitcoin is sitting at support on the daily, weekly, and monthly charts.
  • The speakers believe the same large, institutional buyers from previous cycles will return to defend key price levels.

Takeaways

  • The sentiment from the speakers is bullish on Bitcoin, viewing the current market as an over-reaction to the downside.
  • They believe there is strong technical support at current levels and that downside risk is limited, presenting a potential buying opportunity for those who believe the traditional, severe bear market cycle is broken.

Other Mentioned Assets & Equities

  • Aerodrome (AERO) & Velodrome (VELO): These projects are combining to become a "dominant DEX of EVM" (Ethereum Virtual Machine compatible chains). Their ve-token model is praised as being mechanically superior for revenue distribution, posing a direct threat to Uniswap.
  • Lido (LDO): Mentioned for announcing token buybacks, further confirming the industry-wide shift to the "revenue meta."
  • Public Equities vs. Crypto: The speakers believe that while large-cap stocks and crypto offer similar 2-3x potential, the "small cap size" of crypto (e.g., billion-dollar projects) offers far more opportunity for 5x-10x returns than anything in the public equity space.
  • Oracle (ORCL): This AI-related stock was mentioned as being down 30-40%, illustrating that significant drawdowns are not unique to crypto at the moment. Fears of its bankruptcy were dismissed as "overwrought."
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Episode Description
Crypto Twitter thinks we're in a bear market. Wall Street thinks we're in a bull run. Who's right? In this episode, we sit down with Michael Anderson and Vance Spencer, founders of Framework Ventures, to discuss why every LP is asking about stablecoin exposure, why the four-year cycle narrative is fundamentally broken, and whether the Hyperliquid unlock is actually bullish. We discuss: - Why Every LP Is Asking About Stablecoin Exposure - The Four-Year Cycle Narrative Is Fundamentally Broken - Uniswap's Revenue Share: Four Years Too Late - RWA Looping vs Recursive Lending Explained - The Dangerous Rise of Opaque Off-Chain Fund Managers - Why Staking ETFs Just Killed The DAT Thesis - Build A Business Model Or Die - Is The Hyperliquid Unlock Actually Bullish? 00:00 Intro 02:22 Every LP Wants Stablecoin Exposure Now 04:49 The Wallstreetification of Crypto 07:15 Build A Business Model Or Pivot 09:26 Crypto's Oversell Thesis Explained 11:12 Relay Ad, Hibachi Ad 14:05 RWA Looping: The New Leverage Game 18:52 The Curated Lending Market Path Forward 23:44 Rehypothecation Risk Analysis 25:40 Alvara Ad, Talus Ad 28:20 Uniswap's Revenue Meta Mistake: 4 Years Too Late 33:40 The Double Dipping Era 38:07 Staking ETFs Kill The DAT Thesis 42:49 Hyperliquid's Bullish Unlock Theory Website: https://therollup.co/ Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1P6ZeYd... Podcast: https://therollup.co/category/podcast Follow us on X: https://www.x.com/therollupco Follow Rob on X: https://www.x.com/robbie_rollup Follow Andy on X: https://www.x.com/ayyyeandy Join our TG group: https://t.me/+TsM1CRpWFgk1NGZh The Rollup Disclosures: https://therollup.co/the-rollup-discl ๐——๐—œ๐—ฆ๐—–๐—Ÿ๐—”๐—œ๐— ๐—˜๐—ฅ: ๐˜๐˜ฏ๐˜ท๐˜ฆ๐˜ด๐˜ต๐˜ช๐˜ฏ๐˜จ ๐˜ช๐˜ฏ ๐˜ค๐˜ณ๐˜บ๐˜ฑ๐˜ต๐˜ฐ๐˜ค๐˜ถ๐˜ณ๐˜ณ๐˜ฆ๐˜ฏ๐˜ค๐˜บ ๐˜ข๐˜ฏ๐˜ฅ ๐˜‹๐˜ฆ๐˜๐˜ช ๐˜ฑ๐˜ญ๐˜ข๐˜ต๐˜ง๐˜ฐ๐˜ณ๐˜ฎ๐˜ด ๐˜ค๐˜ฐ๐˜ฎ๐˜ฆ๐˜ด ๐˜ธ๐˜ช๐˜ต๐˜ฉ ๐˜ช๐˜ฏ๐˜ฉ๐˜ฆ๐˜ณ๐˜ฆ๐˜ฏ๐˜ต ๐˜ณ๐˜ช๐˜ด๐˜ฌ๐˜ด ๐˜ช๐˜ฏ๐˜ค๐˜ญ๐˜ถ๐˜ฅ๐˜ช๐˜ฏ๐˜จ ๐˜ต๐˜ฆ๐˜ค๐˜ฉ๐˜ฏ๐˜ช๐˜ค๐˜ข๐˜ญ ๐˜ณ๐˜ช๐˜ด๐˜ฌ, ๐˜ฉ๐˜ถ๐˜ฎ๐˜ข๐˜ฏ ๐˜ฆ๐˜ณ๐˜ณ๐˜ฐ๐˜ณ, ๐˜ฑ๐˜ญ๐˜ข๐˜ต๐˜ง๐˜ฐ๐˜ณ๐˜ฎ ๐˜ง๐˜ข๐˜ช๐˜ญ๐˜ถ๐˜ณ๐˜ฆ ๐˜ข๐˜ฏ๐˜ฅ ๐˜ฎ๐˜ฐ๐˜ณ๐˜ฆ. ๐˜ˆ๐˜ต ๐˜ค๐˜ฆ๐˜ณ๐˜ต๐˜ข๐˜ช๐˜ฏ ๐˜ฑ๐˜ฐ๐˜ช๐˜ฏ๐˜ต๐˜ด ๐˜ต๐˜ฉ๐˜ณ๐˜ฐ๐˜ถ๐˜จ๐˜ฉ๐˜ฐ๐˜ถ๐˜ต ๐˜ต๐˜ฉ๐˜ช๐˜ด ๐˜ค๐˜ฉ๐˜ข๐˜ฏ๐˜ฏ๐˜ฆ๐˜ญ, ๐˜ธ๐˜ฆ ๐˜ฎ๐˜ข๐˜บ ๐˜ฆ๐˜ข๐˜ณ๐˜ฏ ๐˜ข ๐˜ค๐˜ฐ๐˜ฎ๐˜ฎ๐˜ช๐˜ด๐˜ด๐˜ช๐˜ฐ๐˜ฏ ๐˜ฐ๐˜ณ ๐˜ง๐˜ฆ๐˜ฆ ๐˜ข๐˜ด ๐˜ข ๐˜ด๐˜ฑ๐˜ฐ๐˜ฏ๐˜ด๐˜ฐ๐˜ณ๐˜ด๐˜ฉ๐˜ช๐˜ฑ, ๐˜ช๐˜ง ๐˜ต๐˜ฉ๐˜ช๐˜ด ๐˜ช๐˜ด ๐˜ต๐˜ฉ๐˜ฆ ๐˜ค๐˜ข๐˜ด๐˜ฆ ๐˜ธ๐˜ฆ ๐˜ธ๐˜ช๐˜ญ๐˜ญ ๐˜ข๐˜ญ๐˜ธ๐˜ข๐˜บ๐˜ด ๐˜ฎ๐˜ข๐˜ฌ๐˜ฆ ๐˜ด๐˜ถ๐˜ณ๐˜ฆ ๐˜ช๐˜ต ๐˜ช๐˜ด ๐˜ค๐˜ญ๐˜ฆ๐˜ข๐˜ณ. ๐˜ž๐˜ฆ ๐˜ข๐˜ณ๐˜ฆ ๐˜ด๐˜ต๐˜ณ๐˜ช๐˜ค๐˜ต๐˜ญ๐˜บ ๐˜ข๐˜ฏ ๐˜ฆ๐˜ฅ๐˜ถ๐˜ค๐˜ข๐˜ต๐˜ช๐˜ฐ๐˜ฏ๐˜ข๐˜ญ ๐˜ค๐˜ฐ๐˜ฏ๐˜ต๐˜ฆ๐˜ฏ๐˜ต ๐˜ฑ๐˜ญ๐˜ข๐˜ต๐˜ง๐˜ฐ๐˜ณ๐˜ฎ, ๐˜ฏ๐˜ฐ๐˜ต๐˜ฉ๐˜ช๐˜ฏ๐˜จ ๐˜ธ๐˜ฆ ๐˜ฐ๐˜ง๐˜ง๐˜ฆ๐˜ณ ๐˜ช๐˜ด ๐˜ง๐˜ช๐˜ฏ๐˜ข๐˜ฏ๐˜ค๐˜ช๐˜ข๐˜ญ ๐˜ข๐˜ฅ๐˜ท๐˜ช๐˜ค๐˜ฆ. ๐˜ž๐˜ฆ ๐˜ข๐˜ณ๐˜ฆ ๐˜ฏ๐˜ฐ๐˜ต ๐˜ฑ๐˜ณ๐˜ฐ๐˜ง๐˜ฆ๐˜ด๐˜ด๐˜ช๐˜ฐ๐˜ฏ๐˜ข๐˜ญ๐˜ด ๐˜ฐ๐˜ณ ๐˜ญ๐˜ช๐˜ค๐˜ฆ๐˜ฏ๐˜ด๐˜ฆ๐˜ฅ ๐˜ข๐˜ฅ๐˜ท๐˜ช๐˜ด๐˜ฐ๐˜ณ๐˜ด.
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