Arthur Hayes & Illia Polosukhin: Privacy Is The Last 1000x (NEAR & ZEC)
Arthur Hayes & Illia Polosukhin: Privacy Is The Last 1000x (NEAR & ZEC)
Podcast47 min 32 sec
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Note: AI-generated summary based on third-party content. Not financial advice. Read more.
Quick Insights

Investors should prioritize Bitcoin (BTC) as a core hedge against global fiat debasement and government spending on AI and defense. Zcash (ZEC) represents a high-conviction privacy play with a 5x price potential over the next year, provided users utilize "shielded" transactions via wallets like Zashi. For exposure to AI-driven commerce, NEAR Protocol (NEAR) offers a 20x asymmetric opportunity as it moves toward becoming deflationary by 2025. Hyperliquid (HYPE) is a top-tier decentralized exchange pick with a specific price target of $150, benefiting from a lack of VC sell-pressure and the ability to trade synthetic traditional assets 24/7. To minimize risk, focus on "fully diluted" assets where early venture capital investors have already finished selling their stakes.

Detailed Analysis

Bitcoin (BTC)

  • Macro Context: Arthur Hayes views Bitcoin as a hedge against global instability and a beneficiary of "wartime economy" money printing.
  • Liquidity Thesis: Hayes argues that governments (US, China, EU) will print money to fund AI capital expenditures (CapEx) and national defense, which will inevitably leak into Bitcoin.
  • Price Action: Bitcoin successfully forecasted a "deflationary credit event" earlier in the year, dropping from all-time highs to the $60,000 range before stabilizing.

Takeaways

  • Bullish Sentiment: Hayes is "long and strong," viewing Bitcoin as the primary beneficiary of fiat debasement.
  • Risk Factor: Watch for shifts in macro liquidity; if governments stop funding AI CapEx with debt, the bullish thesis weakens.

Zcash (ZEC)

  • Privacy Thesis: Hayes identifies privacy as the "last 1000x" opportunity. He argues that as AI and governments increase surveillance, cryptographically proven privacy will become essential.
  • Protocol Evolution: The "trusted setup" and the 20% team subsidy (founder's reward) are gone, creating a "clean slate" for the asset.
  • Institutional Friction: Hayes noted that most brokers refuse to trade Zcash due to its privacy features, which he views as a contrarian bullish signal ("If I can't get it, I want more of it").
  • Usage: Recommendation to use Zashi or Zoro wallets for "Shielded" transactions; holding Zcash in transparent form is described as a "shitty version of Bitcoin."

Takeaways

  • Core Holding: This is Hayes’s second-largest bag.
  • Price Potential: Hayes estimates a 5x potential over the next year.
  • Actionable Advice: Use shielded addresses and cold storage (e.g., Keystone) to maintain the asset's core value proposition of privacy.

NEAR Protocol (NEAR)

  • Convergence of AI and Privacy: NEAR is positioned as the "execution arm" for AI agents.
  • Confidential Intents: A private shard on top of NEAR allows for private trading, transfers, and payroll. This enables users to send assets (like USDT) anonymously.
  • Tokenomics: NEAR is one of the few "fully diluted" Layer 1s, meaning there are no massive VC unlocks "dumping" on retail investors. Inflation was halved last November.
  • Revenue: The protocol has generated ~$33 million in fees from "Intents," which are used to buy back NEAR tokens.

Takeaways

  • Asymmetric Opportunity: Hayes sees a 20x potential for NEAR, though he scales his position smaller than Zcash due to the risk profile.
  • Deflationary Goal: Founder Illia Polosukhin targets 2025 for the protocol to become deflationary through increased revenue and further inflation reductions.
  • AI Play: NEAR is a bet on "Agentic" commerce—where AI agents hire other agents and settle deals on-chain.

Hyperliquid (HYPE)

  • Exchange Thesis: Hayes emphasizes that exchanges are the most profitable businesses in crypto. HYPE is viewed as the "golden child" of decentralized exchanges (DEXs).
  • Tokenomics: Unlike competitors (dYdX, GMX), HYPE has no VC sales and directs revenue back to token holders.
  • Market Expansion: Through "HIP-3," the platform allows permissionless listing of synthetic markets like the NASDAQ, S&P 500, and Oil, providing 24/7 price discovery when traditional markets are closed.

Takeaways

  • Price Target: Hayes has a specific price target of $150 for HYPE.
  • Market Share: The goal is to capture 10-15% of Binance’s perpetual swap volume.
  • Utility: Staking HYPE provides fee discounts and the ability to participate in listing new markets.

Investment Themes & Sector Insights

The "Privacy Narrative"

  • Privacy is viewed as the "mass adoption enabler." Without it, businesses cannot use crypto for payroll or sensitive supply chain transactions.
  • Monero (XMR) was mentioned as a competitor, but Hayes expressed concerns about its ring signatures being potentially de-anonymized by law enforcement.

AI and Labor Displacement

  • The Thesis: AI will displace white-collar workers in the West and back-office workers in developing nations.
  • Political Risk: Hayes predicts a populist backlash against AI profits. He specifically mentions AOC as a potential 2028 presidential candidate whose platform of "AI taxes" could cause investors to "take chips off the table."

The "Fully Diluted" Advantage

  • A major theme for the "sophisticated" era of crypto is avoiding tokens with high "FDV" (Fully Diluted Valuation) and low circulating supply. Investors are favoring older, established projects where VCs have already finished selling their stakes.
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Episode Description
Arthur and Illia join The Rollup to cover how privacy is massively mispriced. Arthur Hayes is the Maelstrom CIO; Illia Polosukhin is the co-founder of NEAR Protocol. The Rollup is where the leaders of digital assets and finance converge. Live from the financial capital of the world. Timestamps 00:51 Arthur's Macro Thesis 01:32 AI Is National Defense 04:10 Full Port NEAR Zcash Hype 05:23 L1 Consolidation Has Begun 08:26 Why Arthur Loves Zcash 10:03 Naval Changed Arthur's Mind 12:56 Intents Enable Anonymous Swaps 13:45 20x NEAR vs 5x ZEC 14:51 $19B Volume $33M Fees 15:47 Privacy Enables Mass Adoption 19:07 NEAR Fully Diluted Now 21:01 AI Blockchain Vision 2017 26:31 HyperLiquid Fulfills DeFi Dream 28:43 No VC Sales Revenue Share 32:02 AI Labor Displacement Thesis 38:39 AOC 2028 Risk Scenario 44:39 When Does NEAR Deflate? 46:52 $150 Price Target Hype Guest Socials: Arthur Hayes X: https://x.com/CryptoHayes Maelstrom Fund X: https://x.com/Maelstromfund Maelstrom Website: https://maelstrom.fund/ Illia Polosukhin X: https://x.com/ilblackdragon NEAR Protocol X: https://x.com/NEARProtocol NEAR Protocol Website: https://www.near.org/ Partners: Better than Banks. Transparent capital efficiency earning the highest yields in DeFi. Learn more here: https://infinifi.xyz/ --- APYX - Enhanced Digital Credit Yield, Onchain | On Track to Become the Largest Holder of STRC. https://apyx.fi/ --- Dinari - Over 230 1:1 backed tokenized stocks, ETFs & more with dividends. US-based SEC transfer agent. Available on 5+ chains & via API. https://dinari.com/ --- Relay is the fastest and most reliable way to swap any token on any chain. Learn more here: https://relay.link/bridge --- Zama is an open source cryptography company that builds state-of-the-art Fully Homomorphic Encryption (FHE) solutions for blockchain. Learn more here: https://www.zama.org/ --- Trezor is the creator of the first-ever hardware wallet. Securing crypto for 2M+ users worldwide. 100% open source. Learn more here: https://affil.trezor.io/aff_c?offer_id=133&aff_id=36664 --- 𝗪𝗲 𝘁𝗿𝘆 𝗼𝘂𝗿 𝗯𝗲𝘀𝘁 𝘁𝗼 𝗽𝗿𝗼𝗱𝘂𝗰𝗲 𝗵𝗶𝗴𝗵-𝗾𝘂𝗮𝗹𝗶𝘁𝘆, 𝗻𝗼𝗻-𝗯𝗶𝗮𝘀𝗲𝗱, 𝗲𝗱𝘂𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝗮𝗹 𝗰𝗼𝗻𝘁𝗲𝗻𝘁 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗱𝗶𝗴𝗶𝘁𝗮𝗹 𝗮𝘀𝘀𝗲𝘁𝘀 𝗲𝗰𝗼𝘀𝘆𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗺. 𝗦𝘂𝗽𝗽𝗼𝗿𝘁 𝘂𝘀 𝗯𝘆 𝗰𝗹𝗶𝗰𝗸𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗮𝗻𝘆 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗹𝗶𝗻𝗸𝘀 𝗯𝗲𝗹𝗼𝘄 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝗳𝗿𝗲𝗲 𝗿𝗲𝘀𝗼𝘂𝗿𝗰𝗲𝘀: Website: https://therollup.co/ Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1P6ZeYd... Podcast: https://therollup.co/category/podcast Follow us on X: https://www.x.com/therollupco Follow Rob on X: https://x.com/robbieklages Follow Andy on X: https://x.com/andyyy Join our TG group: https://t.me/+TsM1CRpWFgk1NGZh The Rollup Disclosures: https://goodidea.ventures 𝗗𝗜𝗦𝗖𝗟𝗔𝗜𝗠𝗘𝗥: 𝘐𝘯𝘷𝘦𝘴𝘵𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘪𝘯 𝘤𝘳𝘺𝘱𝘵𝘰𝘤𝘶𝘳𝘳𝘦𝘯𝘤𝘺 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘋𝘦𝘍𝘪 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮𝘴 𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘦𝘴 𝘸𝘪𝘵𝘩 𝘪𝘯𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘬𝘴 𝘪𝘯𝘤𝘭𝘶𝘥𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘵𝘦𝘤𝘩𝘯𝘪𝘤𝘢𝘭 𝘳𝘪𝘴𝘬, 𝘩𝘶𝘮𝘢𝘯 𝘦𝘳𝘳𝘰𝘳, 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮 𝘧𝘢𝘪𝘭𝘶𝘳𝘦 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘮𝘰𝘳𝘦. 𝘈𝘵 𝘤𝘦𝘳𝘵𝘢𝘪𝘯 𝘱𝘰𝘪𝘯𝘵𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘳𝘰𝘶𝘨𝘩𝘰𝘶𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘤𝘩𝘢𝘯𝘯𝘦𝘭, 𝘸𝘦 𝘮𝘢𝘺 𝘦𝘢𝘳𝘯 𝘢 𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘮𝘪𝘴𝘴𝘪𝘰𝘯 𝘰𝘳 𝘧𝘦𝘦 𝘢𝘴 𝘢 𝘴𝘱𝘰𝘯𝘴𝘰𝘳𝘴𝘩𝘪𝘱, 𝘪𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘪𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘤𝘢𝘴𝘦 𝘸𝘦 𝘸𝘪𝘭𝘭 𝘢𝘭𝘸𝘢𝘺𝘴 𝘮𝘢𝘬𝘦 𝘴𝘶𝘳𝘦 𝘪𝘵 𝘪𝘴 𝘤𝘭𝘦𝘢𝘳. 𝘞𝘦 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘴𝘵𝘳𝘪𝘤𝘵𝘭𝘺 𝘢𝘯 𝘦𝘥𝘶𝘤𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘢𝘭 𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘵𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘵𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘮, 𝘯𝘰𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘸𝘦 𝘰𝘧𝘧𝘦𝘳 𝘪𝘴 𝘧𝘪𝘯𝘢𝘯𝘤𝘪𝘢𝘭 𝘢𝘥𝘷𝘪𝘤𝘦. 𝘞𝘦 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘱𝘳𝘰𝘧𝘦𝘴𝘴𝘪𝘰𝘯𝘢𝘭𝘴 𝘰𝘳 𝘭𝘪𝘤𝘦𝘯𝘴𝘦𝘥 𝘢𝘥𝘷𝘪𝘴𝘰𝘳𝘴.
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