The Longest ‘Late Cycle’ in Market History with Liz Thomas
The Longest ‘Late Cycle’ in Market History with Liz Thomas
Podcast27 min 33 sec
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Note: AI-generated summary based on third-party content. Not financial advice. Read more.
Quick Insights

While the long-term outlook for gold is bullish, it is currently too overextended, so investors should wait for a market pullback to find a better entry point in ETFs like GLD or IAU. Be cautious of the regional banking sector, as the underperformance of the KRE ETF signals underlying economic weakness despite a strong broader market. The proliferation of highly leveraged ETFs for stocks like AMD and COIN is a sign of excessive speculation and increases the risk of a sharp market downturn. This speculative behavior is a warning sign of late-cycle market froth that could lead to significant volatility. In contrast, the bond market remains stable, and a potential early end to the Fed's quantitative tightening could create an attractive investment opportunity in bonds.

Detailed Analysis

Regional Banking (KRE)

  • The KRE, an ETF that tracks regional banks, is highlighted for its significant underperformance compared to larger banks and the broader market.
  • It is currently trading around $60, well below its all-time high of nearly $80 in January 2022.
  • The speakers note a "K-shaped" divergence in performance, with large investment banks trending up while regional banks trend down.
  • This weakness is seen as a warning sign. The health of regional banks is considered a necessary confirmation for a truly healthy, cyclical bull market, and that confirmation is currently missing.

Takeaways

  • The continued underperformance of regional banks, as represented by the KRE, suggests underlying weakness in the cyclical parts of the economy, despite strength in the broader market.
  • Investors should watch this sector for a potential turnaround. A recovery in regional banks could signal a healthier, more broad-based economic expansion. Conversely, continued weakness could be a leading indicator of trouble ahead.

Leveraged ETFs & Speculative Behavior

  • The discussion points to a record high number of leveraged ETFs (over 700), which is seen as a sign of late-cycle market behavior and excessive speculation.
  • Specifically mentioned are new 5X levered ETFs being listed for popular stocks, including:
    • AMD
    • Coinbase (COIN)
    • Oracle (ORCL)
    • Google (GOOGL)
    • Palantir (PLTR)
    • Bitcoin (BTC)
  • This trend, along with record-high margin debt, is creating more fragility in the market. While leverage amplifies gains on the way up, it is described as a "double-edged sword" that can accelerate sell-offs dramatically.

Takeaways

  • The proliferation of highly leveraged products is a classic sign of market froth and heightened risk appetite.
  • Investors should be cautious, as this level of speculation can lead to extreme volatility. An unwind in these leveraged positions could cause sharp and rapid declines in the underlying assets.

Gold

  • Gold is experiencing a powerful rally that is defying technical analysis. One speaker noted it was trading as much as 50% above its 200-day moving average, which is described as "absurd."
  • The primary driver of this strength is not retail investors, but persistent and heavy buying from global central banks, who are unlikely to sell their holdings.
  • The speakers have a strong bullish long-term view on gold, seeing it as a response to leverage problems and other systemic risks.
  • ETFs mentioned for gaining exposure to gold include GLD, IAU, PHYS (a physically-backed trust), and gold miners.

Takeaways

  • Long-Term Bullish: The fundamental case for gold, driven by central bank demand and systemic financial risks, remains strong.
  • Short-Term Caution: One speaker explicitly stated they would not buy gold today because it is extremely overextended from a technical perspective. They believe a sell-off in the broader equity market could trigger a temporary dip in gold, offering a better entry point for long-term investors.
  • One host detailed a successful strategy of selling in April after a large run-up and then re-entering the position from mid-September to early October, capturing an 11-12% gain in just over a month. This highlights the potential for actively managing a position in a volatile asset.

Investment Theme / Risk Factor: Private Credit

  • A significant risk discussed is the growing stress in the private credit market.
  • Post-2008 regulations pushed riskier lending away from traditional, highly-regulated banks to less-regulated, non-bank financial institutions (NBFIs).
  • A series of recent bankruptcies and fraud-related events in this space are raising concerns about contagion that could spill over into the traditional financial system.
  • Because these assets are private, they are not priced daily ("marked to market"), which means risks can build up unseen until it's too late.
  • The speaker notes that while a few of these events can be dismissed as "one-offs," if the number reaches double digits, it should be considered a systemic theme.

Takeaways

  • The private credit market is a potential source of hidden risk for the financial system.
  • Investors should be aware that problems in this opaque corner of the market could create unexpected volatility in public markets, including potential negative impacts on sectors that rely on this type of funding, such as AI startups.

Bonds & Interest Rates

  • The bond market is described as being relatively "calm" and "tame," which is viewed as a positive for overall market stability.
  • The MOVE index (which measures bond market volatility) did not spike alongside the recent spike in the VIX (stock market volatility), indicating that fears are not currently centered on the bond market.
  • There is an expectation that the Federal Reserve will end its Quantitative Tightening (QT) program "sooner than people expected." This would be a "dovish" policy shift and a potential tailwind for bonds (meaning prices could rise and yields could fall).

Takeaways

  • The current stability in the bond market is a source of comfort for investors.
  • Potential dovish actions from the Fed, such as ending QT, could make bonds an attractive investment through the end of the year and into the next, offering both stability and potential for price appreciation.
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Episode Description
Guy Adami and Liz Thomas of SoFi discuss a range of topics including regional banks' performance, market volatility, private equity concerns, and gold's unprecedented rise. They delve into financial instability stemming from bankruptcies, fraud, and speculative leverage, stressing the systemic risks in non-bank financial institutions. The episode also highlights the divergence in regional versus large banks' performances, the implications on liquidity, and the broader economic outlook. Additionally, they explore the unexpected resilience and meteoric rise of gold, driven largely by central bank buying and investor sentiment, defying technical expectations. The podcast wraps up with a brief insight into CPI data and its anticipated market impact. —FOLLOW USYouTube: @RiskReversalMediaInstagram: @riskreversalmediaTwitter: @RiskReversalLinkedIn: RiskReversal Media
About RiskReversal Pod
RiskReversal Pod

RiskReversal Pod

By RiskReversal Media

Welcome to the RiskReversal Pod, where Dan Nathan and Guy Adami are joined by the most brilliant minds in markets and tech.  We break down the most important market moving headlines to help listeners make better informed investing decisions. Our goal is to deconstruct Wall Street speak and offer contrarian insights and strategies that help investors navigate increasingly volatile markets. Tune into the RiskReversal Pod Monday through Friday for succinct 30 minute pod drops of market analysis that you won't find anywhere else. For new episodes of On The Tape with Danny Moses, search "On The Tape" in your favorite podcast platform. — FOLLOW US YouTube: @RiskReversalMedia Instagram: @riskreversalmedia Twitter: @RiskReversal LinkedIn: RiskReversal Media