The End of Recessions is Closer Than You Think ft. Jordi Visser
The End of Recessions is Closer Than You Think ft. Jordi Visser
Podcast1 hr 12 min
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Note: AI-generated summary based on third-party content. Not financial advice. Read more.
Quick Insights

Consider holding NVIDIA (NVDA) and Tesla (TSLA) as core long-term positions, as they are viewed as the primary winners of the AI revolution, with TSLA's RoboTaxi launch in 2025 being a key catalyst. Be cautious with other large-cap tech stocks like Amazon and Google, as their massive spending on AI infrastructure could hurt profit margins over the next three to five years. A key opportunity exists in the AI energy build-out, specifically through the beaten-down solar sector via the TAN ETF. With heavy selling pressure on Bitcoin (BTC) potentially ending, now may be an opportune time to gain exposure before expected Fed rate cuts drive the next price increase. Finally, prepare for a potential rotation into undervalued small-cap stocks in 2025, as they are poised to benefit from lower interest rates and the broadening AI economy.

Detailed Analysis

Artificial Intelligence (AI)

  • The speakers believe AI is the most deflationary force that could ever exist, which will keep inflation and interest rates lower than many expect.
  • AI is causing a major disruption in the labor market, particularly for knowledge workers. Large companies like Amazon, Walmart, and Accenture are already slowing or stopping hiring to improve profit margins.
  • This disruption is happening at an exponential speed, and the speakers believe most people and Wall Street analysts do not grasp the scale of the change.
  • There is a massive infrastructure build-out required to support AI, estimated to be a $5 trillion capital expenditure (CapEx) to reach 100 gigawatts of power by 2030.
  • Many experienced investors are cynical and calling AI a bubble, but the speakers believe this is a mistake and that the consensus view is underestimating the growth. The "bubble" will only truly occur when the cynics finally give in and invest heavily.

Takeaways

  • Investing in the AI theme is a long-term, high-conviction play. The speakers see it as "the greatest invention humanity will ever create."
  • Look for opportunities not just in the well-known AI model creators, but in the entire ecosystem required to build it out. This includes semiconductors, power infrastructure, data centers, and energy.
  • The deflationary pressure from AI suggests that assets that perform well in a lower-rate environment could benefit.

NVIDIA (NVDA)

  • NVIDIA is seen as the central player in the AI build-out, described as the "oil" of the AI revolution.
  • The speakers are very bullish on NVDA and consider it one of the few winners within the MAG-7.
  • They argue that Wall Street is significantly underestimating NVIDIA's future revenue. The current consensus forecast for 2030 is around $425 billion, but the speakers' math, based on the required $5 trillion AI infrastructure spend, suggests this is far too low.
  • The market is pricing in an almost 0% chance that NVIDIA will maintain its market share or that the full CapEx build-out will happen. This indicates that the stock could have significant upside if the build-out proceeds as they expect.

Takeaways

  • NVIDIA is viewed as a core holding for the AI theme.
  • The bullish case is based on the idea that the market has not yet priced in the true scale of the global AI infrastructure build-out, giving the stock more room to run.

Tesla (TSLA)

  • The speakers are very bullish on Tesla, grouping it with NVIDIA as a key winner in the new economy.
  • They believe that like Bitcoin, many people don't believe in the long-term vision, creating an opportunity.
  • A major upcoming catalyst is the Tesla RoboTaxi, which they describe as "real humanoids on wheels." They expect this to launch in 2025 and believe it will force investors to take the humanoid and autonomous AI story seriously.
  • Tesla's large fleet of cars contains "latent computing" power that can be connected via its Starlink network, creating a massive distributed computing network.

Takeaways

  • Tesla is viewed as more than just a car company; it's an AI, robotics, and energy company.
  • The launch of the RoboTaxi next year is a key event to watch, as it could dramatically change the market's perception and valuation of the company.

The "MAG-7" (Excluding NVDA & TSLA)

  • The speakers have a generally bearish or cautious view on the rest of the Magnificent Seven (Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Meta, Apple).
  • They refer to these companies as "the spenders" in the AI race. They will have to spend enormous amounts of money on AI infrastructure (like NVIDIA's chips and massive energy consumption) to stay competitive, which could hurt their profit margins.
  • They believe these stocks will have a "hard time" over the next three to five years and may act as a drag on the overall market index due to their large weight.
  • Apple is mentioned as a "maybe" exception, but the general sentiment is negative for the group.

Takeaways

  • Be cautious about holding the largest tech stocks (other than NVDA and TSLA) with the expectation of continued outperformance.
  • Their massive spending on AI is a headwind, and they may not be the primary beneficiaries of the trend, but rather the biggest customers.

Energy for AI

  • The AI build-out requires an enormous and urgent increase in energy supply. This is described as a "game of nations" that cannot be lost.
  • Solar Energy: Identified as the only solution that is decentralized and can be built quickly enough to meet the demand.
    • The TAN ETF (a solar energy ETF) is mentioned as being down 90% from its highs, suggesting it could be a deep value opportunity as the market has been overly cynical after the last cycle.
  • Natural Gas: Will be used for "load balancing" the grid, as gas power plants can be built in about two years and gas is abundant and cheap.
  • Bitcoin Miners: They are being reframed from an environmental negative to a grid-positive asset.
    • They act as "virtual batteries" by using excess power when demand is low and shutting down to provide power back to the grid when demand is high (like during a heatwave in Texas).
    • This grid optimization role makes them a crucial part of the energy solution for AI and could attract traditional finance investors.

Takeaways

  • The massive energy demand for AI is a major investment theme.
  • Solar energy, represented by assets like the TAN ETF, is seen as a primary beneficiary due to the speed at which it can be deployed.
  • Companies involved in natural gas infrastructure and power generation could also benefit.
  • Bitcoin mining stocks offer a unique, dual exposure to both the crypto and AI energy infrastructure themes.

Bitcoin (BTC)

  • The recent price action has been "boring" due to significant selling pressure. The speakers believe this selling has come from Asia, specifically China, and potentially from Bitcoin miners who need to cover operational costs.
  • This selling pressure (supply) is now being absorbed, setting the stage for the next move up, which will be driven by Fed rate cuts and improving economic conditions (PMIs rising).
  • Long-term, Bitcoin is seen as a crucial asset in a world of growing inequality caused by AI. As people are displaced from the labor force, they will turn to assets like Bitcoin "because they need it to survive."
  • The speakers reject the "four-year cycle myth" in its traditional sense. They believe that with central banks cutting rates and earnings accelerating, the environment is set for asset prices to go higher, not enter a bear market.

Takeaways

  • The period of heavy selling in Bitcoin may be coming to an end, creating a potential buying opportunity before the next major bull run.
  • The long-term thesis for Bitcoin is strengthened by the societal changes being driven by AI, positioning it as a necessary hedge against systemic instability and currency debasement.

Stablecoins (e.g., Circle's USDC)

  • Stablecoins are described as one of the most important developments, creating "network effects on the US dollar."
  • They allow anyone in the world to build on US dollar rails permissionlessly and at scale, which is an incredibly powerful tool for the US.
  • The Circle IPO is a major signal that this sector is becoming mainstream. The high valuation is justified not by traditional cash flows, but by its value as a network (Metcalfe's Law).
  • As AI agents become more prevalent, they will transact using stablecoins, causing the velocity of money in the digital economy to "go through the roof."

Takeaways

  • The growth of stablecoins is a massive, underappreciated theme. It represents the plumbing of the new digital economy.
  • Investing in the infrastructure around stablecoins (like Circle) and the platforms that use them is a way to gain exposure to this trend.
  • The rise of a stablecoin-based digital economy makes the traditional fiat banking system less relevant over time.

Small Cap Stocks

  • The speakers believe 2025 will be the year of "things that people don't want to invest in," including small-cap stocks.
  • They expect small caps to do "phenomenally well" at the index level.
  • This is because many smaller companies are highly sensitive to interest rates and will benefit significantly from the expected Fed rate cuts.
  • As the AI build-out broadens, the investment will flow from the mega-cap leaders to smaller companies that supply the ecosystem, such as small boiler companies, battery companies, etc.

Takeaways

  • Consider rotating some capital from over-extended large caps into undervalued small caps in anticipation of a broadening market rally in 2025.
  • Small caps offer leverage to the themes of falling interest rates and the widespread economic benefits of the AI infrastructure build-out.
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Episode Description
🔥 *The Future of Finance is HERE: Join the waitlist* https://rvtv.io/3IQ5Bs6 ⚪ Jordi Visser, founder and chief strategist at Visser Labs, joins Raoul Pal to dive deep into the collision of AI, macroeconomics, and markets — exploring how exponential innovation is reshaping labor, inflation, and global growth. From the Fed’s pivot to the coming $5 trillion AI buildout, they reveal why energy, stablecoins, and humanoids could define the next decade of investing. Recorded on October 29, 2025. ⚪ X: @jvisserlabs 📣 This episode is brought to you by Figure, the platform to Earn and Borrow. Need liquidity without selling your crypto? Figure offers Crypto-Backed Loans, allowing you to borrow against your Bitcoin or Ethereum with 12-month terms and no prepayment penalties. They have the lowest rates in the industry at 8.91%, allowing you to access instant cash or buy more Bitcoin without triggering a tax event. You can always see your BTC ownership in your FM account and verify holdings in your personal BTC vault onchain. Unlock your crypto’s potential today. 👉 Visit their app to apply for a Crypto Backed Loan today https://figuremarkets.onelink.me/Plnq/2uhuytay 📣 Bitwise has been all-in on crypto since 2017 and has more than 20 crypto-based products to help investors get the access they need. Bitwise manages the world’s largest crypto index fund, one of the top Bitcoin ETFs, and one of the largest institutional Ethereum staking solutions. Bitwise has over $10 billion in assets under management and employs over 100 people in the US and Europe to manage a range of products, including ETFs, private alpha strategies, and SMAs for large investors. 👉 Check out Bitwise at https://bitwiseinvestments.com and let them know that Real Vision mentioned them. Carefully consider the extreme risks associated with crypto before investing. 📣 Today’s sponsor is Plus500 US. Take your trading to the next level with cross-market contracts, from precious metals to key indices, and more. Whether you’re a seasoned trader in the Futures arena or brand new, Plus500’s user-friendly trading platform offers you the advanced tools, market insights, and quick execution you’ve been looking for. 👉 Get started with Plus500 for as little as $100 at https://us.plus500.com. Trading in futures involves the risk of loss. Unlock the potential to showcase your brand to our global audience. Contact us at partnerships@realvision.com for advertising inquiries. 🍌 Get your Banana Zone swag at the Real Vision merch store: https://shop.realvision.com Connect with me: Twitter (X): https://twitter.com/RaoulGMI Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/raoulgmi/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/raoul-pal-real-vision/ My other work: Real Vision: https://rvtv.io/3LHYIaH Global Macro Investor: https://globalmacroinvestor.com The Exponentialist: https://realvision.com/thefuture EXPAAM: https://expaam.com Connect with Real Vision™: Twitter: https://rvtv.io/twitter Instagram: https://rvtv.io/instagram Get a FREE membership: https://rvtv.io/3Y4t5Pw Disclaimer: https://media.realvision.com/wp/20231004185303/Disclaimer-1.pdf Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
About Raoul Pal: The Journey Man
Raoul Pal: The Journey Man

Raoul Pal: The Journey Man

By Real Vision Podcast Network

The world is changing faster than ever before. This comes with life-changing opportunities but also unprecedented challenges. In The Journeyman, I talk to the greatest minds at the nexus of macro, crypto, and technology to figure out exactly what the Exponential Age means for us all. I uncover the big trends, potential investment opportunities, and economic risks and rewards, and ask the big questions on how this impacts us, our businesses, and our societies. Brought to you by Real Vision.