149. 亲历中美neo labs资本狂潮,和清华刘子鸣聊:AI for AI、机制可解释性和Max Tegmark
149. 亲历中美neo labs资本狂潮,和清华刘子鸣聊:AI for AI、机制可解释性和Max Tegmark
Podcast1 hr 40 min
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Note: AI-generated summary based on third-party content. Not financial advice. Read more.
Quick Insights

Investors should pivot from basic AI application wrappers to emerging leaders in Auto Research and foundational automated model design. Watch for early-stage infrastructure providers that enable natural language "vibe training" and automated custom model generation. Monitor high-potential "New Labs" originating from elite academic institutions like MIT and Stanford that are bridging deep research with commercialization. Allocate capital toward specialized verticals like AI for Science and World Models over the next 6 to 12 months as these R&D phases transition to products. Prepare for a sector-wide shift where automated, data-driven reasoning frameworks lower the costs of training private, domain-specific models.

Detailed Analysis

Investment Themes & Sectors: AI Research Automation and "New Labs"

  • The podcast highlights the rise of "New Labs"—startups founded by academic researchers (frequently from top institutions like MIT, Stanford, Tsinghua, and Peking University) who are bridging deep academic research and commercialization.
  • AI for AI (Auto Research) is emerging as a major frontier following the success of AI for coding. This theme focuses on building systems that automate scientific discovery, model design, and architecture search rather than just relying on brute-force computing power.
  • Investors are pouring capital into specialized AI verticals, including AI for Science, World Models, and Auto Research, creating a fast-moving and high-activity venture capital environment.
  • Unlike traditional tech startups that immediately focus on commercial products, these New Labs often dedicate a foundational 6 to 12 months strictly to research and development before pivoting to productization.

Takeaways

  • Investors looking at the artificial intelligence sector should monitor companies moving beyond basic large language model (LLM) wrappers into foundational research automation and automated model design (Auto Research).
  • The sector is shifting from human-led trial and error ("old school research") to automated, data-driven reasoning frameworks, which could dramatically lower the barrier and cost of training custom models for vertical industries.

Investment Themes & Sectors: Foundation Models and Vibe Training

  • The discussion highlights a shift toward "Vibe Training" or custom model creation, where users will not need to understand complex coding or architecture design; instead, they will provide natural language requirements, and automated systems will design, train, and deploy custom private models.
  • There is an active debate on the limitations of current architectures like Transformers. While extremely successful for language due to human evolutionary adaptation, experts believe future progress will require models capable of deeper abstraction, symbolic reasoning, and physical world simulation (World Models).

Takeaways

  • Future value in the AI ecosystem may shift away from centralized general-purpose foundation models toward domain-specific, custom-trained models built via automated research pipelines.
  • Investors should watch for early-stage infrastructure players that enable automated model training and architecture generation, as these tools represent the next step beyond coding assistants like Cursor and GitHub Copilot.
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Episode Description
我们此前访谈过谢赛宁(AMI)、洪乐潼(Axiom),他(她)们分别来自在欧洲和美国的neo lab。但今天,这个现象已不止于海外——2026年,中国也涌现了一批新型实验室。 这些有研究背景的老师或学生,正在成为一级市场的新宠儿。他们普遍年轻、有名校科研背景、第一次创业。在还没有产品的时候,就能以估值数亿美金融资。当下资本涌入最活跃的方向是,世界模型和AutoResearch(又称AI for AI)。 我很好奇这个现象的现实与成因。这集节目,我邀请了清华大学人工智能学院助理教授、上海期智研究院PI刘子鸣。他毕业于北大和MIT,是KAN网络的一作,于3月刚刚回国到清华任教,同时参与创建公司元环智能。他用“太疯狂了”来形容这股新的资本潮。 我们聊了聊中美neo labs的兴起与成因,以及他所探索的一条非典型AI for AI叙事。 接下来,就是我对刘子鸣的访谈。 OUTLINE: 00:02:00 刘子鸣的自我介绍(从物理转型AI) 00:08:24 研究者的类型:“鸟人”vs“蛙人” 00:10:24 2024年研究KAN网络,刚开始Max Tegmark不同意 00:16:18 思考,怎么让设计模型也变成一门科学,变得scalable? 00:18:21 我同意谢赛宁说,“大语言模型是反bitter lesson的” 00:20:20 在我看来,在后LLM的时代,模型设计会变得更重要,因为LLM的成功不是因为模型 00:21:16 我的研究:嫁接神经和符号两个世界,嫁接AI和自然科学两个世界 00:28:00 从MIT到斯坦福,信仰变了,身边很多人都从scientist转化成entrepreneur 00:37:11 26年,亲历了硅谷和中国两边neo labs创业潮,neo labs大量涌现的本质是什么? 心理层面,一部分研究员不想做“大头兵”;现实层面,neo labs的方向是Coding Agent的missing part 00:42:41 当下neo labs资本涌入最活跃的两个方向:世界模型和AutoResearch 00:44:16 作为neo labs参与融资的实际体感:“就是,太疯狂了!” 00:46:51 做AI for AI技术路线和田渊栋的Recursive Superintelligence(RSI)区别是什么? 00:54:53 meta model(原模型)是预测下一个curve,这件事怎么做呢? 设定的目标是什么? 01:04:20 如何理解AI这个黑盒?空间(看得更细)、时间(看模型如何演化)、平行宇宙(做可控实验) 01:09:09 为什么做AI for AI需要Physics of AI?为什么做AutoResearch需要理解AI的原理? 01:12:49 Anthropic的机制可解释性能做到什么程度? 01:18:16 如果AI for AI在AGI主线上,neo labs和现有frontier labs的竞争 01:21:57 倘若人人都能训模型,能干啥? 01:26:25 梳理今年中美做AI for AI的创业团队和路线 01:34:50 截至2026年AI发展阶段和创业新体验 LINKS: 我们的播客在小宇宙、Apple Podcast、Spotify等全音频平台播出; 我们的视频播客在Bilibili、小红书、视频号、抖音等全视频平台播出; 如果你想服用文字版,请搜索我们工作室的公众号:语言即世界language is world。 DISCLAIMER: 本内容不作为投资建议。 CONTACT: xiaojunzhang@lisw.ai Jump into the new world-and explore with us!😉
About 张小珺Jùn|商业访谈录
张小珺Jùn|商业访谈录

张小珺Jùn|商业访谈录

By 张小珺

努力做中国最优质的科技、商业访谈。 张小珺:财经作者,写作中国商业深度报道,范围包括AI、科技巨头、风险投资和知名人物,也是播客《张小珺Jùn | 商业访谈录》制作人。 如果我的访谈能陪你走一段孤独的未知的路,也许有一天可以离目的地更近一点,我就很温暖:)