How to Trade Crypto Cycles with Raoul Pal
How to Trade Crypto Cycles with Raoul Pal
166 days agoEmpireBlockworks
Podcast1 hr 3 min
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Note: AI-generated summary based on third-party content. Not financial advice. Read more.
Quick Insights

Monitor the ISM manufacturing index as a guide for the business cycle, considering adding to risk assets like tech stocks and crypto when it's below 50, as liquidity is expected to increase. For core crypto exposure, focus on major networks like Bitcoin (BTC) as a direct play on global liquidity and Ethereum (ETH), which is valued on user growth and network activity. Consider rotating some profits from established winners like Solana (SOL) into promising, earlier-stage Layer 1s such as Sui (SUI) to capture the next wave of growth. Invest in the long-term AI trend by focusing on its key inputs, particularly energy, as scaling solar and natural gas is critical for powering the required computing infrastructure. Always maintain a cash or stablecoin position to capitalize on market drawdowns, which are prime opportunities to buy high-conviction assets at a discount.

Detailed Analysis

Macro Environment & The Business Cycle

  • The primary driver for both crypto and technology stocks is global liquidity. Raoul Pal's work suggests that global liquidity explains 97% of the NASDAQ's price movements and 90% of Bitcoin's.
  • The business cycle is the most important factor to follow. A simple way to track this is the ISM (Institute for Supply Management) manufacturing index.
    • Historically, when the ISM is below 50, it's a good time to add to investments.
    • When the ISM is high (e.g., above 57 or 58), it's a signal to start taking profits or "lifestyle chips."
  • The speaker is bullish on the forward-looking business cycle, expecting it to be stronger going into an election year due to anticipated fiscal and liquidity stimulus, plus the probability of rate cuts.
  • This stimulus is expected to increase "Main Street" activity and provide more disposable income, which could then flow into risk assets like crypto.

Takeaways

  • Pay attention to macro liquidity. The single biggest factor driving markets right now is the amount of money in the global financial system. When liquidity is increasing, risk assets tend to do well.
  • Use the ISM as a simple guide. For long-term investors, consider adding to your positions when the ISM index is below 50 (indicating economic contraction) and think about taking some profits when it gets close to 60 (indicating strong expansion).
  • The near-term outlook is positive. The combination of a US election year, potential rate cuts, and other stimulus measures suggests that liquidity will likely increase, which is bullish for both tech stocks and crypto.

Cryptocurrency (General)

  • Crypto is described as being at the "farthest end of the risk spectrum" and is the asset class most sensitive to changes in liquidity.
  • The speaker dismisses the idea that the crypto "four-year cycle" is the dominant factor. Instead, he argues that crypto's price movements are driven by the broader business cycle and liquidity.
  • The recent weakness in crypto is attributed to a temporary "liquidity air pocket," profit-taking from early investors, and potential impairment of market maker balance sheets from a recent flash crash.
  • The approval of ETFs has brought in significant volume, but much of it is from arbitrage trades (hedge funds buying the spot ETF and selling futures) rather than pure, long-term investment from retail or institutions. Real, sticky inflows are expected to come when the business cycle improves and people have more disposable income.

Takeaways

  • Expect high volatility. As the asset class most sensitive to liquidity, crypto will experience the largest swings up and down. Be prepared for significant drawdowns.
  • Focus on the business cycle, not just the halving cycle. While crypto-specific events matter, the overall economic environment and liquidity conditions are more powerful drivers of price.
  • Don't mistake ETF arbitrage for mass adoption (yet). While ETFs are a positive step, the real bull case relies on sustained inflows from everyday investors and institutions, which is more likely to happen in a stronger economy.

Bitcoin (BTC)

  • Bitcoin's price is 90% correlated to global liquidity, making it a direct play on macro-financial conditions.
  • It is viewed as a form of digital gold and should not be valued based on transaction fees, just as physical gold is not.
  • Drawdowns are a normal part of investing in Bitcoin. The speaker notes that drawdowns have become less severe with each cycle (e.g., -87.5% in 2013 vs. smaller drops in later cycles).
  • The next major drawdown is predicted for 2027, following the peak of the next business cycle.

Takeaways

  • Treat Bitcoin as a macro asset. Its performance is tied to the health of the global financial system. A belief in Bitcoin is a belief that liquidity will continue to be injected into the system over the long term.
  • Embrace volatility. Large price drops are features, not bugs, of a Bitcoin investment strategy. These drawdowns offer opportunities to buy at lower prices and compound returns, provided your long-term thesis remains intact.

Ethereum (ETH) & Layer 1s (L1s)

  • The speaker argues against using traditional valuation models like Discounted Cash Flow (DCF) for crypto networks like Ethereum.
  • The correct way to value these networks is by using Metcalfe's Law, which states that a network's value is proportional to the square of the number of its users. The key metrics are:
    • Number of active users.
    • Total value transacted per user.
  • Based on these metrics, the speaker believes Ethereum will likely grow significantly in value as more of the traditional financial system moves on-chain, massively increasing the value transacted on the network (including its Layer 2s).
  • The speaker's personal strategy is to stick with major Layer 1s because their metrics are definable and easier to understand. He has a "don't fuck this up" thesis, which means avoiding going too far out on the risk curve into smaller, unproven tokens.
  • He mentions specific trades he has made: buying Solana (SOL) at the lows and later rotating into Sui (SUI).
  • He notes that some networks, like Cardano (ADA), can be outliers, having many holders but little actual economic activity, making them harder to value with this model.

Takeaways

  • Value crypto like a tech network, not a stock. Don't get bogged down by price-to-earnings or revenue multiples. Instead, focus on user growth and the value moving through the ecosystem. The core question is: "Will more people and more money use this network in the future?"
  • Stick to the majors for safety. For most investors, it's safer and simpler to invest in established Layer 1 blockchains (Bitcoin, Ethereum, Solana, etc.) rather than trying to find the next small-cap gem.
  • Layer 2s add value to the L1. Activity on Layer 2 networks (like Polygon, Arbitrum, Optimism) should be considered part of the overall Ethereum ecosystem's value, not as a detractor from it.

Technology Stocks & NVIDIA (NVDA)

  • Technology stocks, particularly the NASDAQ, are part of the "greatest macro trade of all time" alongside crypto. They are also highly correlated with global liquidity.
  • The speaker notes that many fund managers were underweight tech stocks this year, calling them a bubble, and were forced to chase performance later on.
  • NVIDIA (NVDA) is highlighted as a key company, with its CEO being as important as the Fed Chair.
  • A recent example showed NVIDIA beat earnings expectations and gave strong guidance, yet the stock went down. This illustrates the market concept of news being "priced in" and investors taking profits after a good run.

Takeaways

  • Tech and crypto are two sides of the same coin. Both are bets on a more digital future and are fueled by the same macro liquidity trends. A portfolio can benefit from holding both.
  • Good news doesn't always mean a higher stock price. If a stock has had a massive run-up, positive earnings might already be expected by the market. This can lead to "sell the news" events where investors take profits.

Artificial Intelligence (AI) Theme

  • AI is described as the "most profoundly disruptive technology the world has ever seen" and a "nuclear bomb when it comes to deflation."
  • Investing directly in AI is difficult. You can buy hyperscalers (like Google, Amazon, Microsoft) or chip makers like NVIDIA, but these are crowded trades.
  • A key insight is the flywheel of progress: Energy -> Compute -> Intelligence. To win the AI race, nations and companies need massive amounts of cheap energy.
    • Solar is the fastest and cheapest energy source to scale in the short term (12 months).
    • Natural gas is the next option (2-year timeline).
    • Nuclear is the most efficient long-term solution but takes nearly a decade to build.
  • The speaker sees a huge nexus between AI and blockchain. As billions of AI agents are deployed, they will need blockchain for instantaneous payments (for energy and compute) and to create digital scarcity in a world of infinite digital abundance.

Takeaways

  • AI is a long-term, civilization-level trend. It's more than just a hot stock theme.
  • Think about the inputs. A "picks and shovels" way to invest in the AI trend is to consider the prerequisites, especially energy. Companies involved in scaling solar, natural gas, and eventually nuclear power are critical enablers of the AI revolution.
  • Blockchain is the payment and property layer for AI. The growth of AI will create a massive need for the services that crypto networks provide, reinforcing the bullish case for blockchain infrastructure.

Portfolio Construction & Strategy

  • The speaker's personal portfolio is 100% crypto, but this is an extreme risk tolerance. He can do this because he has other businesses that provide cash flow, so he doesn't need to sell his investments to live.
  • Extend your time horizon. The biggest mistake investors make is having a short-term mindset for a long-term game. Align your investment horizon with the business cycle (which lasts several years).
  • Take "lifestyle chips" off the table. You don't have to time the top perfectly. When you have significant profits that could change your life, it's wise to sell a portion (25-30%) to fund lifestyle goals. This reduces psychological stress and regret.
  • Learn to love drawdowns. If you have a long-term conviction in an asset, price drops are opportunities to buy more at a discount and lower your average cost. You should be excited when an asset you like goes on sale.
  • Have cash ready. Opportunities in crypto appear very quickly (e.g., flash crashes). It's crucial to have capital (e.g., in stablecoins) ready to deploy, as moving money from a bank can take days and cause you to miss the opportunity.

Takeaways

  • Structure is more important than timing. Your success depends on having a long-term plan, managing your psychology, and having uncorrelated sources of income so you are never a forced seller.
  • Don't go all-in unless you can truly afford it. For most people, a 100% crypto allocation is not appropriate. Size your positions so you can sleep at night and withstand a 50-80% drop without panicking.
  • Profit-taking is not a sign of weakness. Systematically taking some profits during strong bull runs is a smart way to manage risk and ensure you realize some of your gains.
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Episode Description
This week, Raoul Pal joins the show to discuss the current state of markets. As crypto & equities face their first significant sell off since the April lows, we deep dive into what's next for markets. Raoul discusses why he believes there's a wave of liquidity coming in 2026, how to trade crypto cycles, valuing crypto networks, has the DAT bubble burst, Raoul AI thesis & more. Enjoy! -- Follow Raoul: https://x.com/RaoulGMI Follow Santi: https://x.com/santiagoroel Follow Empire: https://x.com/theempirepod -- Zcash is encrypted Bitcoin. Your digital bill of rights securing your freedom for the 21st century. Buy, store and spend ZEC privately using Zashi Wallet download today: https://electriccoin.co/zashi/ -- Katana is a DeFi-first chain built for deep liquidity and high yield. No empty emissions, just real yield and sequencer fees routed back to DeFi users. Pre-deposit now: Earn high APRs with Turtle Club [https://app.turtle.club/campaigns/katana] or spin the wheel with Katana Krates [https://app.katana.network/krates] -- This Empire episode is brought to you by VanEck. Learn more about the VanEck Onchain Economy ETF (NODE): http://vaneck.com/EmpireNODE An investment in the Fund involves a substantial risk and is not suitable for all investors. It is possible to lose your entire principal investment. The Fund may invest nearly all of its net assets in either Digital Transformation Companies and/or Digital Asset Instruments. The Fund does not invest in digital assets or commodities directly. Digital asset instruments may be subject to risks associated with investing in digital asset exchange-traded products (“ETPs”), which include the historical extreme volatility of the digital asset and cryptocurrency market, as well as less regulation and thus fewer investor protections, as these ETPs are not investment companies registered under the Investment Company Act of 1940 (“1940 Act”) or commodity pools for the purposes of the Commodity Exchange Act (“CEA”). Investing involves substantial risk and high volatility, including possible loss of principal. Visit vaneck.com to read and consider the prospectus, containing the investment objective, risks, and fees of the fund, carefully before investing. © Van Eck Securities Corporation, Distributor, a wholly owned subsidiary of Van Eck Associates Corporation. -- Uniswap’s Trading API offers plug-and-play access to deep onchain and off-chain liquidity, delivering enterprise-grade crypto trading without the complexity - from one of the most trusted teams in DeFi. Click to get started with seamless, scalable access to Uniswap’s powerful onchain trading infrastructure. https://hub.uniswap.org/?utm_source=blockworks&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=ww_web_bw_awa_trading-api_20251117_podcast_clicks -- (00:00) Intro (01:25) Where Are We In The Macro Cycle? (10:11) How To Value Crypto Networks? (20:58) Ads (Zcash, Katana) (22:14) The K-Shaped Economy (25:31) Has The DAT Bubble Burst? (28:24) Why Liquidity Drives Markets (38:19) Ads (Zcash, Katana) (39:35) How To Trade Crypto Cycles (49:57) Ads (VanEck, Uniswap) (51:39) Raoul's AI Thesis -- Disclaimer: Nothing said on Empire is a recommendation to buy or sell securities or tokens. This podcast is for informational purposes only, and any views expressed by anyone on the show are solely our opinions, not financial advice. Santiago, Jason, and our guests may hold positions in the companies, funds, or projects discussed.
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Empire features interviews with top crypto founders to get the real stories that aren’t shared elsewhere. Empire is your look behind the curtain of the crypto industry. We release two episodes per week: guest interviews on Monday and a weekly roundup on Friday.